Eyrwpaikh synhdeish kai islam - Ena laikistiko post

[Gabriel]

Me thn diafora oti to edafio pou milaei gia ton epektatismo tou Islam kai thn eksolothreysh twn apistwn yparxei kai einai ksekatharo.

den yparxei oyte kata fantasia edafio poy mila oso explicitly oso to anafereis edw gia "epektatismo" kai "eksolothreysh twn apistwn".

[Vic]

Exeis dikio gia tous Araves. Dhlwnw o xamenos sto sygkekrimeno kommati tou dialogou. Skeftomoun poly perissotero tous Othwmanous pou opws swsta eipes den einai kan araves.
Vevaia, kai pali thewrw poly ypshloterou epipedou ton Vyzantino (xristianiko giati ayto mas endiaferei) politismo apo ton araviko-islamistiko alla se ayto mporei na eimai kai biased logw ths koultouras mou. Pantws nomizw kai antikeimenika milwntas ta mousika kai arxitektonika epiteygmata tou vyzantinou politismou einai makran ta anwtera ths periodou tous (pou kalyptei kai mia oloklhrh xilietia etsi?). To mousiko kommati pou anefera pantws afora kosmikh mousikh kai oxi ekklhsiastikh alla tespa. Apo edw kai pera diafwnoume se themata proswpikhs antilhpshs kai ypokeimenika opote kalyfthikame :P

To Korani den to exw diavasei oloklhro (exw diavasei mono thn Kainh Diathiki kai aythn oloklhrh mono ta 2 teleytaia xronia kai nomizw to 90% tou kosmou exei diavasei apospasmata kai oxi to vivlio oloklhro).

Exw diavasei apospasmata alla aytousia, to kanoniko keimeno (se metafrash profanws, sta agglika sygekrimena). Kai enw pistevw oti enas anthrwpos mporei na vrei stoixeia kala apo to Korani (tha elega logiko mias kai to miso einai kseshkwma apo tis xristianikes grafes) kai yparxoun pragmatika isorrophmenoi kai ygieeis mousoulmanoi, h ousia tou vivliou kai h apopsh tou Mwame8 ('h opoios telospnatwn to egrapse) einai kathara wfelimistikh kai stoxeyei sto ypogastrio kai oxi sthn psyxh tou anthrwpou. Einai pio eykolo (isws kai pio timio telika) na odhghtheis se mia fontamentalistikh theokratikh koinwnia typou Afghanistan/Iran/Pakistan me vash to Korani para me to Evaggelio.

Den kserw, den to exw diavasei plhrws aplws me mia mikrh erevna ths evdomadas (me arketh prosoxh pantws) katelhksa ekei...
E, telos pantwn... :)

[Gabriel]

to pakistan einai stratiwtikh xoynta, oxi islamikh theokratia. (sxedon) entelws to antitheto.

epishs, nomizw oti an epaneltheis me mhdenikes prokatalhpseis sto qur'an tha deis oti polla apo ayta poy molis aneferes den isxyoyn. oso, twra, gia to gegonos oti to teleytaio katapianetai me istories "biblikwn/xristianikwn proswpwn" ayto einai mia praekshghsh. h palaia diathhkh, apo thn opoia kai oi treis abraamikes thrhskeies antloyn to megalytero meros ths mythologias toys, den einai perissotero xristianiko biblio ap'o,ti enai ebraiko h' islamiko. o abraam p.x - ebraios, fysika, eks anatrofhs - den htan "xristianos", epeidh egw ki esy mporei na ton gnwrizoyme apo th biblo, oyte exei thn apokleistikothta toy o xristianismos. polloi profhtes einai koinoi kai stis treis thrhskeies.

[Vic]

Me thn diafora oti to edafio pou milaei gia ton epektatismo tou Islam kai thn eksolothreysh twn apistwn yparxei kai einai ksekatharo.

den yparxei oyte kata fantasia edafio poy mila oso explicitly oso to anafereis edw gia "epektatismo" kai "eksolothreysh twn apistwn".

Verse 4:74 - "Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of Allah; whoever fights for the cause of Allah, whether he dies or triumphs, on him We shall bestow a rich recompense."

Verse 9:111 - "Allah has purchased from the faithful their lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for the cause of Allah, they will slay, and be slain."

Verse 47:3 - "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly."

Verse 48:29 - "Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."

Verse 66:9 - "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate."

Verse 5:17 - "Unbelievers are those who declare: 'God is the Messiah, the son of Mary.'"

Verse 5:51 - "Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another."

Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."

Ti eleges?

[Raven Lord]

από τα λίγα που ξέρω, το ισλάμ όχι μόνο παραδέχεται την ύπαρξη του χριστού, αλλά τον θεωρεί και προφήτη του αλλάχ... μου φαίνεται λίγο άκυρο να βάλλεται εναντίον των πιστών του τόσο σκληρά.

ξέρω 'γω...

για δώσε και πηγή, ποιος έχει κάνει τη μετάφραση κτλ...

[Gabriel]

ayto poy elega.

opws ta paratheteis etsi, akoma kai ws apospasmata, se kamia periptwsh - opws to blepw egw - den einai explicit anafores se "epektatismo" h' "eksolwthreysh". isws deis, ana paratheseis kai to context, oti to nohma den einai akribws ayto poy erxetai sthn epifaneia toy prokateilhmenoy myaloy (aka toy thrhskolhpta xristianikoy myaloy, e. oxi toy kaloy mas Vic ) diabazontas ena monostixo.

kai na giati, ena-ena:

1) oti o allax tha antameipsei aytoys poy dinoyn th zwh toys kai polemoyn gia to logo toy. ti pio fysiko, se ena islamiko keimeno? sth biblo tha breis kati paromoio.

2) des to apopanw. to "they will slay, and will be slain" einai profanes otan milas gia polemo. poythena den protrepei o profhths ton pisto na kanei epektatiko polemo enantion kapoioy alloy.

3) an koitakseis, o profhths milaei mono gia amyntikoys polemoys. kathe tetoia anafora ksekina me to endexomeno o apistos na erthei na prokalesei thn edafikh soy akeraiothta, "na biasei tis gynaikes sas, na skotwsei ta paidia sas" ktl ktl

4) ayto oyte sxolio de xreiazetai.

5) to "make war" (opws kai sto 9) ) de shmainei aparaithta "pare to giatagani soy kai kantona kempap". ayth einai poly periorismenh metafrash poy ksekina apo to symperasma poy thelei na bgalei i.e. oti o moysoylmano einai ena aimostages teras.

6) e, profanes, etsi? oti leei kai o theos toy mwhsh gia toys eidwlolatres.

nai, kai?

9) ayth einai arketa aggressive-sounding metafrash. ayth poy exw egw protreinei ton pisto na polemaei ton apisto gia na toy deiksei oti o allax einai me to meros aytwn poy enantiwnontai sto kako. (see 5) )

ayta poy eipa sthn arxh toy post.

[ManWhoSoldTheWorld]

Πάντως ένας Ιμάμης που μίλαγε κάποτε για το τζιχάντ έλεγε πως ο πόλεμος είναι πνευματικός περισσότερο παρά σωματικός-επεκτατίκος. Τώρα το πνευματικός φαντάζομαι μπορεί να μεταφραστεί σε προσπάθεια διατήρησης της πίστης και την αποφυγή επηρρεασμού από πειρασμούς.

[Kuolema]

Σαικς.

[Vic]

Miso, giati den thelw na pareksigithw. Tha koitaksw kapoia stigmh ayrio gia full texts (kai gia na vgalw kai egw mia pio emperistatwmenh apopsh) alla ayth thn stigmh eimai me thn omada mou kai doulevoume se ena project.

Skopos mou den einai na vgalw tous mousoulmanous malakes aimostageis kai varvarous, exw hdh anaferei oti gnwrizw polles periptwseis ygiwn mousoulmanwn kai entopizw to provlhma sthn paideia. O skopos ths paratheshs twn stixwn einai gia na ton sygrinw me thn K. Diathiki pou den yparxoun oute kata dianoia tetoies anafores, pnevmatikes kai mh, alla to pasignwsto na gyriseis to allo magoulo, na agapas tous exthrous sou, agapate allhlous klp.

Gabriel, anafereis thn P. Diathiki alla exw hdh pei thn thesh mou sto sygkekrimeno shmeio. Den kserw an eirwneyesai pou me les thiskolhpto xristiano (ypothetw pws oxi), pantws osh aksia exei o logos mou, sou lew pws einai anything but. To vasiko mou point sta teleytaia posts einai oti vriskw logikotero enas islamistikos politismos na odhgeitai ston fontamelismo para o xristianikos. Thewrw oti oi plhges tou Xristianismou exoun pathsei panw se kataforh (kai kyriws eksofthalmh) paraviash twn arxwn tou Xristianismou, eksou kai h terastia koinh katakravgh twn ekklhsiwn (me trantaxto paradeigma tis dytikes ekklhsies pou exoun ksefygei entelws).

Anameinate sto akoustiko sas, an endiafereste dhladh.

[Gabriel]

Gabriel, anafereis thn P. Diathiki alla exw hdh pei thn thesh mou sto sygkekrimeno shmeio. Den kserw an eirwneyesai pou me les thiskolhpto xristiano (ypothetw pws oxi), pantws osh aksia exei o logos mou, sou lew pws einai anything but.

agaphte moy vic, th shmeiwsh sthn parenthsh thn ebala akribws gia na soy pw oti DEN se thewrw thrhskolhpto xristinano. mhpws den to egrapsa kala. "aka toy thrhskolhpta xristianikoy myaloy, e. oxi toy kaloy mas Vic" ennooysa na se eksairesw apo toys xristianoys, thrhskolhptoys h' mh .

To vasiko mou point sta teleytaia posts einai oti vriskw logikotero enas islamistikos politismos na odhgeitai ston fontamelismo para o xristianikos.

bebaia, o xristianikos fundamentalismos (o opoios yparxei akoma se poly asteies morfes, apo orthodoksoys eyaggelistes mexri creationists kai den kserw gw ti allo) exei apla thn polyteleia na periorizete mesa se pio polyfwnikes koinwnies. kai ayto einai thema politiko. den eimaste ligotero fundamentalistes epeidh anhkoyme se xristianikes koinwnies: katakrinoyme apla pio eykola to fundamentalistiko stoixeio mesa sthn koinwnia mas epeidh kapoioi prin pente aiwnes kerdisan to dikaiwma na mhn einai theokratoymenoi kai diafwtisan thn koinwnia me arxes poy den exoyn sxesh me to xristianismo, h', indeed, kamia thrhskeia.

iera eksetash kai witchhunts, pantws, de thymamai na eixan pote oi islamistes. kai as mh thymithoyme me ti eyrythta pneymatos petsokoban oi stayroforoi kai oi conquistadores ta ekatommyria. emeis apla ton entelws mywdh, ormoniko fundamentaismo ton perasame pio prin. ayto einai olo.

[Vic]

Dystyxws tha se apogohteysw omws, dioti thelw na legomai xristianos :) Aplws oxi "xristianos". Den einai tyxaio oti witchhunts kai ieres eksetaseis den yphrxan sthn vyzantinh istoria. O ekxristianismos twn Ellhnwn pou akougetai ws to pio gnwsto paradeigma varvarothtas sthn anatolikh ekklhsia exei parapoiithei vanaysa kai kyriws oi istorikes ypervoles twn revisionists dinoun kai pairnoun. Opws kai na exei to pragma, thewrw thn poreia ths anatolikhs xristianikhs ekklhsias apisteyta diaforetikh apo thn dytikh kai nomizw h sygrish tou vyzantinou politismou se sxesh me ton antistoixo dytiko dikaiwnei me to parapanw ayth thn thesh mou...

Ayto anhkei se allo topic, alla afhses kai ena yponooumeno gia tous creationists. Dystyxws, sou dinw asist gia karfwma: Eimai kai egw enas apo aytous. Prin viasteis na me katadikaseis omws gia afeleia se plhroforw oti exw riksei para ma para poly diavasma sto sygkekrimeno kai ennoeitai kai tis episthmonikes apopseis ths thewrias ths ekselikshs pou thewrw oti einai ena tragika parwxhmeno kai anikano na ekshghsei apeira pragmata montelo. Ayto se periptwsh pou sto mellon endiafertheis na kaneis kana topic ;)

Ku: Kamia antirrhsh. Den tha valw sto idio saki olous tous mousoulmanous, den htan tyxaia allwste h anafora mou stous Vedouinous tou Sina pou vazoun ta gyalia se mena kai anarithmitous "xristianous".

Prepei opwsdhpote na doulepsw, me koitane me miso mati twra...

[Raven Lord]

το μόνο που θα'θελα να σημειώσω είναι ότι και η ανατολική εκκλησία είχε πολλές "μαύρες" στιγμές, όπως η εικονομαχία η οποία κράτησε αιώνες και έφτασε σε ακρότητες, χωρίς να θέλω να τη συγκρίνω με τις καφρίλες της δυτικής εκκλησίας...

[eyeamflesch]

Katarxin Kuu, mi milas sa Manowaras pou rwtaei kapoion metallako na tou pei ola ta onomata periodeiwn twn Manowar. Einai logiko kapgoios Ellinas/xristianos na mi gnwrizei gia Sounites, Siites, pylwnes klp.

En synexeia kai en katakleidi, Vic, tsekare poso merciful ito oi Arabes stis ekstrateies toys kai poso oi Xristianoi, meta.

[Kuolema]

Όχι, δε μίλησα σαν μεταλλοπατέρας νομίζω. Απλώς ήθελα να καταλήξω στο ότι δεν είναι όλοι ίδιοι και δεν είναι όλοι επιρρεπείς στο "κακό".
Πείτε μου τη λίγο ακόμα. Είναι υπέροχο.
Οκ, το σβήνω. Μαλακία ήταν έτσι κι αλλιώς.

[Vic]

En synexeia kai en katakleidi, Vic, tsekare poso merciful ito oi Arabes stis ekstrateies toys kai poso oi Xristianoi, meta.

Nai, alla prin mou thn peis diavase kai ligo ti grafw. Exw kanei safh diaxwrismo metaksy anatolikhs kai dytikhs ekklhsias pro pollou. Den me afora h parathrhsh sou. Den epixeirhmatologw gia enan afhrhmeno xristianismo pou perilamvanei orthodoksous, katholikous, protestantes klp... Milaw gia ton xristianismo opws ekfrasthke apo thn anatolikh ekklhsia kai sygkekrimena sta xronia tou Vyzantiou. Den lew oti ola htan kala kai rodina (swsth h parathrhsh tou Raven Lord btw. makran h xeiroterh stigmh ths anatolikhs ekklhsias) alla lew oti yphrkse mia stigmh sthn istoria, xiliwn etwn kai vale opou anaptyxthike enas xristianikos politismos pou htan to ligotero fovera aksiologos...

"Kalyetera tourkiko fesi para papikh tiara" elegan oi Vyzantinoi, nomizw pws o diaxwrismos einai safhs...

To 626mX pou phge o Hrakleios na parei ton Timio Stavro pisw, pws ferthike stous Araves? Kamia apolytws sxesh me thn Dysh.