Giatroi ek Roumanias, Boulgarias klp

[Dragonlord]

χμ
Επειδή η αδερφή μου είναι γιατρός έχω μια άλφα επαφή με το θέμα.Έχει τελειώσει Αθήνα και μου έχει πει πως έχει δει από τη μία ΤΙΣ φρικαλεότητες από παντελώς άχρηστους γιατρούς του ανατολικού μπλοκ (κλασικό το να περνάνε μαθήματα πηγαίνοντας τσιγάρα στον καθηγητή) ΑΛΛΑ έχει δει και αρκετούς καλούς,κάποιες φορές καλύτερους από μερικούς "έλληνες".Τα τελευταία χρόνια το ΔΙΚΑΤΣΑ έχει γίνει πολύ πιο δύσκολο (παλιά είναι αλήθεια πως όποιος είχε λεφτά γινόταν γιατρός) και γενικώς ομαλοποιείται σιγά σιγά η κατάσταση.Α επίσης η αδερφή μου έχει δει απίστευτες αρχιδιές κι από "έλληνες" και γενικά αυτές οι γενικοποιήσεις είναι ως γνωστόν ηλίθιες και άκυρες.Αλλά μην ακούτε τον κατώριμο,είναι "τρελός" και έχει ψευδαισθήσεις.Το πιθανότερο είναι πως το περιστατικό με τη μητέρα του δεν έγινε καν,απλά νομίζει πως έγινε επειδή ήθελε πολύ να γίνει (για να έρθει να κάνει τόπικ).

[katwrimos]

right!

[Dunadan Ranger]

Dunadan koita, ta post sou stin ousia einai anti-Dikatsa post kai opos sou eipa den exo prothesi na iperaspisto to dikatsa, mias simfono pano kato stis apopseis sou gi auto

koita twra na deis gelio
symfwneis oti to dikatsa einai gia ton poutso kai eisai antidikatsas giati kanei oti kanei...ARA symfwneis oti O ARMODIOS ORGANISMOS TOU KRATOUS ay8airetei SKOPIMA kai gia diaforous koinonikopolitikooikonomikous logous enantiwn twn apofoitwn anatolikis eyrwphs kai etsi W8EI SE KOINWNIKO RATSISMO diaxwrizontas emas tous amoirous kai katatasontas mas se PARIES opws eipa se allo post.
ap thn allh diafwneis oti symbainei kati tetoio....telika diafwneis oti symfwneis h symfwneis oti diafwneis ...giati sta post sou ..opou milhsa gia koinwniko ratsismo mono pou den mou proteines na pw ki eyxaristw pou dexonte na me baloun na plhrwnw gia na dinw e3etaseis pou oi pi8anothtes na petyxw diabasw de diabasw einai 15%(giati ayto to pososto prepei na pernaei ka8e 6 mhnes).

To thema einai oti to vasiko komati tou post mou stin ousia to dexesai (otan les oti to 80% ton apofoiton valkanion einai asxetoi). Afto simenei oti se ena 80% simfoneis mazi mou, sosta?

Loipon pame tora gia to 20%. Den amfisvito oti se auto to 20% mporei na iparxoun kapoioi giatros pou na exei tis gnoseis kapiou elina. Afto omos den simainei oti prepei na nomimopoihthoun ta ptixeia apo ekei, giati mazi me 5 giatrous pou tha einai kaloi, tha nomimopoiountai kai alloi 20 pou tha sfazoun kosmo (me vasi ta dika sou pososta). Opote pistevo oti simfoneis ki esy oti i automati anagnorisi ton ptixeion einai out of the question, sosta??

Esy loipon, mas les oti prepei to kratos na dinei tin eukairia sto 20% na apodiskei tin isotimia ton ptixeion tou me eksetaseis. Sorry alla edo exeis adiko kai tha sou eksigiso giati. Apoti katalava edo einai kai i vasiki diafonia mas

oxi...milhsa gia ena 80% prin dwsei dikatsa kai prepei na ypologiseis pws ayta ta paidia EXOUN BASEIS, apla gia dikous tous logous DEN ENDIAFERONTE.
den ginete na eisai 4 xronia mesa sta nosokomeia kai na mhn 3ereis pws na pareis aima ...pws na antimetwpiseis ena peristatiko h kapoia basika pragmata.
safestata den 3eroun ayta pou xreiazete gia na onomasteis "giatros"

kai gia na sou apanthsw mia kai kalh sto sygkekrimeno 8ema

DEN GINETE NA APANTAS 60/100 ERWTHSEIS (ws bash ka8ws yparxoun kapoioi pou grafoun parapanw) pou toulaxiston oi mises EINAI ERWTHSEIS EIDIKOTHTAS H' ERWTHSEIS EKTOS DIDAKTEAS YLHS STA ELLHNIKA PANEPISTHMIA kai na les OTI DEN NOMIMOPOIHSE NA 8EWREIS ISOTIMO TO PTYXIO SOU me to ellhniko.
kai sou epanalambanw gia NIosti fora....
paw sthn italia ....giati o mpampas exei lefta...xwnomai sth notia italia pou ladwnonte aberta.... xynw ladi pernw ta ma8hmata kai erxomai me to ptyxio edw kai to anagnwrizw xwris e3etaseis xwris tipota....gi ayto ti exeis na peis???
gi ayto DEN EXEI MILHSEI KAI DE MILAEI POTE KANEIS...
kai ta noumera tetoiwn periptwsewn einai poly megala
alla ekei den ginete logos eite giati ta paidia ayta einai plousiwn megalogiatrwn ...eite giati h italia einai kai htan EE mia zwh.
ta paradeigmata einai polla kai de 8a katsw na ta 3anapw...sou eipa oti kai kourasthka kai kourazw...
an den mporeis na katalabeis OTI OLOI EXOUN TO DIKAIWMA NA DWSOUN E3ETASEIS KAI AYTOI POU A3IZOUN NA PERASOUN (giati an perasoun tis SYGKEKRIMENES E3ETASEIS 8a to a3izoun xwris deyterh koubenta(exw kanei 6-7 erwthseis se eidikeyomeno eidiko pa8ologo kai me koitage xwris na milaei)) ,den mporw na pw h na kanw kati allo...
sou eipa ..exeis thn apopsh sou...
einai nomos tou kratous omws o opoios apotelei MESOBEZIKH LYSH epeidh akribws yparxoun problhmata sthn enta3h tou ergatikou dynamikou kai pieseis apo tous iatrikous kai foithtikous syllogous...KAI APO AYTOUS TOUS NOMOUS/MESOBEZIKES LYSEIS OLOI XANOUN kai h megisth xasoura einai h dikia mas ws foithtes anatolikou mplok.kai apo psyxologikh kai apo praktikh apopsh.

1. An to dikatsa anagnorizei ta ptixeia me eksetaseis, tote auto simainei oti opoios epitixei ontos exei tis idies theoritikes gnoseis me enan elina. Omos se ena giatro, den arkei na apodikseis tis theoritikes sou gnoseis, diafoneis se afto??

S A F E S T A T A kai diafwnw
na diafwnhsw perissotero den ginete
prepei na pareis xampari kapoia stigmh pws oi teleiofoitoi iatrikhs den exoun thn ikanothta na KANOUN TIPOTA ek twn pragmatwn.
den exoun empeiria klinikhs iatrikhs ka8ws ta ergasthria kai oi parousies sthn klinikh aneka8en den edinan tetoia efodia.
ektos ths gnwrimias me to periballon oi klinikes gnwseis pou exei enas teleiofoitos giatros einai poly liges.
prepei oloi kai esy perissotero na katalabeis pws h iatriki MA8AINETE sthn eidikothta kai to agrotiko.
to panepisthmio sou dinei tis baseis kai th gnwsh na doulepseis ...AYTO DE SHMAINEI TIPOTA.
to mono pou shmainei einai oti exeis MPOLIKH 8EWRIA STO MYALO SOU kai LIGH PRA3H.
afou loipon o teleiofoitos sto megalo pososto apo 8ewria gnwrizei kai oxi apo pra3h KAI AFOU STH 8EWRIA E3ETAZETE giati emeis 8a prepei na apodykneioume tis praktikes mas ikanothtes?
3ereis kapoion teleiofoito iatrikhs pou na apeidei3e tis PRAKTIKES TOU IKANOTHTES kapou? kai poies p[raktikes ikanothtes apedei3e.
sth 8ewria e3etazonte sxedon panta...sthn 8ewria 8a e3etazomaste ki emeis.
kai opws eipa sth 8ewria meta apo 1.5-2 xronia dikatsa se megalo pososto pisteyw pws tous ellhnes foithtes TOUS EXOUME ANETA.

2. Eksetaseis mporeis na peraseis kai me plagious tropous. Kai tha mou peis "giati stis eksetastikes den pernas me plagious tropous ama thes?". Nai mporeis, alla to thema einai oti pios einai pio pithanos na perasei me plagious tropous: A. O gios tou megalogiatrou pou spoudazei roumania B. Kapoios pou exei os skopo tis zois tou na ginei giatros. Opote katalavaineis to skeptiko mou fantazomai... Kapoios pou exei faei 3 xronia gia na perasei stin iatriki, prepei na einai dixasmeni prosopikotita gia na arxisei ksafnika na pernaei mathimata ladonontas kai antigrafontas... Kapoios pou einai gios megalogiatrou kai exei starxidia tou tin iatriki malon etsi tha perasei... Opote epistrefoume pali sto oti mazi me tous 5 giatrous pou tha aksizoun pragmatika na pernane kai 10 kompogianites. Diafoneis??

ante na symfwnhsw...kai?
ti exei na kanei ayto me ayta pou les ,dhladh to oti oi foithtes apo anatoliko mplok DEN A3IZOUN na dinoun e3etaseis kai na diekdikoun isotimia?
8a e3etazoume ta h8ika-synais8hmatika krithria tou 8ematos (to poso poly 8elei kapoios na ginei giatros) kai 8a dinoume ptyxia?
ayto to les sobara twra?
egw pali 3erw pws prin merika xronia ena terastio pososto allou dhlwne sxoles kai meta tis panellhnies allou briskotan....kata proseggish eyxaristhmenoi htan oi epityxontes sto megalo tous pososto.
mhpws den eprepe na paroun kai aytoi ptyxia apo tis sxoles tous epeidh den h8elan px na ginoun gewponoi kai antegrafan epeidh bariontousan na perasoun ta ma8hmata?
den thn katalabainw thn logikh ayth kai sorry kiolas.

Afto pou prospatho na se peiso einai oti den aksizei gia na apoktisei i elada 100 parapano giatrous, na apoktisei kai 500 kompogianites, pou ESY O IDIOS paradexesai oti apoteloun tin pliopsifeia ton giatron apo ta valkania.

prose3e kaneis la8os edw...opws eipa ...OI TELEIOFOITOI einai xalies sto megalo pososto tous....
oi teleiwmenoi me dikatsa EINAI ISOTIMOI TU ELLHNA TELEIOFOITOU IATRIKHS.
kai sth sygkrish kapoioi einai kalytroi twn ellhnwn teleiofoitwn kai kapoioi xeiroteroi(isws kapws perissoteroi) ALLA SIGOURA SE MESO ORO STO IDIO EPIPEDO.
to ti giatroi 8a ginoun apo dw kai pera e3artate apo PPPAAAARA POLLOUS PARAGONTES ...

(apo ta parapano afisa ektos opiadipote analisi perilamvanei oikonomikopolitika kritiria, opos to giati einai perissotero anekto na erxontai giatroi apo tin europaiki enosi kai to POSOUS GIATROUS XREIAZETAI MIA XORA, kathoti profanos sou einai adiafori i oikonomikopolitiki pleura tou thematos.

kaneis terastio la8os.einai h douleia mou les na mhn 3erw pou badizw?
poia einai h oiklonomikh pleyra ths iatrikhs kai poly perissotero an8rwpwn pou exoun spoudasei balkania?
epeidh den epikentrwsa ekei th syzhthsh nomizeis pws den gnwrizw?
den nomizw omws na e3yphretei kati an 8eloume na milhsoume gia systhma dikaiou to na E3YPHRETEIS oikonomika symferonta.(giati anafer8hka sxedon se ola mou ta post gia thn oikonomikh pleyra tou 8ematos ..aplws den anelysa)

Auto omos den simainei oti den iparxei i pleura auti - apla skepsou ti tha ginotan an oloi osoi ithelan na spoudasoun iatriki mporousan na to kanoun, den tha ipirxe oute enas viologos px)

eipame yparxei
oi biologoi den exoun sxesh me thn klinikh iatrikh.kai an exoun einai ELAXISTH ws mhdenikh

[katwrimos]

koita twra na deis gelio
symfwneis oti to dikatsa einai gia ton poutso kai eisai antidikatsas giati kanei oti kanei...ARA symfwneis oti O ARMODIOS ORGANISMOS TOU KRATOUS ay8airetei SKOPIMA kai gia diaforous koinonikopolitikooikonomikous logous enantiwn twn apofoitwn anatolikis eyrwphs kai etsi W8EI SE KOINWNIKO RATSISMO diaxwrizontas emas tous amoirous kai katatasontas mas se PARIES opws eipa se allo post.
ap thn allh diafwneis oti symbainei kati tetoio....telika diafwneis oti symfwneis h symfwneis oti diafwneis ...giati sta post sou ..opou milhsa gia koinwniko ratsismo mono pou den mou proteines na pw ki eyxaristw pou dexonte na me baloun na plhrwnw gia na dinw e3etaseis pou oi pi8anothtes na petyxw diabasw de diabasw einai 15%(giati ayto to pososto prepei na pernaei ka8e 6 mhnes).

Ante pame pali dikatsa... Ma einai profanes oti to dikatsa den einai aksiokratiko (sou epanalamvano oti to master apo souidia DEN tha anagnoristei giati den einai sta suidika, paroti KANEIS den kanei edo master sta suidika, oute kan oi souidoi kai paroti ta panepistimia edo einai 2 klaseis anotera apo ta ellinika) alla afto den simainei kati... DILADI OK TO DIKATSA EINAI GIA TO POUTSO. Afto den to amfisvito, pame parakato?

oxi...milhsa gia ena 80% prin dwsei dikatsa kai prepei na ypologiseis pws ayta ta paidia EXOUN BASEIS, apla gia dikous tous logous DEN ENDIAFERONTE.

Oraia diladi afto to 80% pou sti sintriptiki tou pleiopsifia apoteleitai apo gious megalogiatron, epidi exei vaseis tha prepei na exei to dikaioma dinontas kapoies eksetaseis na apoktisei isotimo ptyxeio me giatrous? Aftos pou prin 2 xronia adiaforouse?? DIladi pragmatika esy os giatros tha itheles sinadelfous pou piran to ptixeio tous pernontas mia eksetasi tou dikatsa eno oso isastan simfoithtes tous evlepes na adiaforoun??

den ginete na eisai 4 xronia mesa sta nosokomeia kai na mhn 3ereis pws na pareis aima ...pws na antimetwpiseis ena peristatiko h kapoia basika pragmata.
safestata den 3eroun ayta pou xreiazete gia na onomasteis "giatros"

opote epi tis ousias simfoneis oti i automati anagnorisi ton ptyxeion ton valkanikon xoron einai out of the question, afou tha epetrepe stous "safestata aneparkeis os giatrous apofoitous (diki sou gnomi)" na ginoun amesos giatroi, sosta?

DEN GINETE NA APANTAS 60/100 ERWTHSEIS (ws bash ka8ws yparxoun kapoioi pou grafoun parapanw) pou toulaxiston oi mises EINAI ERWTHSEIS EIDIKOTHTAS H' ERWTHSEIS EKTOS DIDAKTEAS YLHS STA ELLHNIKA PANEPISTHMIA kai na les OTI DEN NOMIMOPOIHSE NA 8EWREIS ISOTIMO TO PTYXIO SOU me to ellhniko.

Ginetai giati af'enos den iparxei tropos na epikirothei i aksiopistia ton valkanikon panepistimion, af'etairou oi mathites ton ellinikon panepistimion exoun perasei kai kapoies eksetaseis pou esy parekampses, opote einai adiko gia autous... Mporei esy na min to vlepeis etsi, alla einai PROFANES oti oi apofoitoi ton ellinikon panepistimion prepei kapos na epivravevontai gia tin prospatheia tous... Tora an esy theoreis dikaio na exei to idio ptixeio kapios pou exei dosei panelinies kai exei spoudasei apo ena panepistimio pou me ola ta strava tou exei kapoio kiros, me enan ipopsifio pou pire to ptixeio tou apo ena panepistimio safos mikroterou kirous XORIS na ginei epilogi ton ipopsifion, dikaioma sou, omos ego (kai i sintriptiki pliopsifia tou kosmou) diafonei.

kai sou epanalambanw gia NIosti fora....
paw sthn italia ....giati o mpampas exei lefta...xwnomai sth notia italia pou ladwnonte aberta.... xynw ladi pernw ta ma8hmata kai erxomai me to ptyxio edw kai to anagnwrizw xwris e3etaseis xwris tipota....gi ayto ti exeis na peis???
gi ayto DEN EXEI MILHSEI KAI DE MILAEI POTE KANEIS...

Nai exeis dikio edo, alla tora poio einai to epixeirima sou? Oti epidi afinoume tous Italous tsarlatanous na askoun tin iatriki prepei na tous afinoume olous? Episis ektos apo afto to peristatiko exo kai alla na sou anafero AKOMA XEIROTERA (gios megalogiatrou spoudase proto etos sti voulgaria kai afou o mpampas evale ta megala mesa pire metagrafi gia athina kai tora askei iatriki me ptixeio apo tin iatriki athinon parakalo). Afto ti simainei? Oti epidi iparxoun 5-10 strava sto sistima na ta kanoume kamia 20aria?

an den mporeis na katalabeis OTI OLOI EXOUN TO DIKAIWMA NA DWSOUN E3ETASEIS KAI AYTOI POU A3IZOUN NA PERASOUN (giati an perasoun tis SYGKEKRIMENES E3ETASEIS 8a to a3izoun xwris deyterh koubenta(exw kanei 6-7 erwthseis se eidikeyomeno eidiko pa8ologo kai me koitage xwris na milaei)) ,den mporw na pw h na kanw kati allo...
sou eipa ..exeis thn apopsh sou...

I apopsi mou opos sou eipa den einai oti esy prosopika den prepei na apoktiseis isotimo ptyxeio, alla oti mazi me sena pou tha pareis to ptixeio tha to paroun kai aloi 2 gioi megalogiatron (dika sou pososta- sou thimizo oti eipes oti 40% ton valkanogiatron me dikatsa den to aksizoun)... Profanos gi' auto adiaforeis omos...

S A F E S T A T A kai diafwnw
na diafwnhsw perissotero den ginete
prepei na pareis xampari kapoia stigmh pws oi teleiofoitoi iatrikhs den exoun thn ikanothta na KANOUN TIPOTA ek twn pragmatwn.

Em... oxi... Sorry alla afto pou les den isxiei... Enas teleiofoitos iatrikis ektos apo theoritikes gnoseis exei PX anoiksei kai 5-6 ptomata prosexontas pou einai to sikoti, oxi an exei oraia vizia i simfititria tou, eno esy o idios paradexesai oti to 80% ton apofoiton valkanion den exoun endiaferon gia tis spoudes tous...

den exoun empeiria klinikhs iatrikhs ka8ws ta ergasthria kai oi parousies sthn klinikh aneka8en den edinan tetoia efodia.

simfonoi, alla einai diaforetiko pragma na THES na gineis giatros kai se afta ta elipi esto ergastiria NA PARAKOLOUTHEIS ME ENDIAFERON apo to na eisai enas gios megalogiatrou pou ksineis ta arxidia sou kai na adiaforeis sta ergastiria afta, oso anelipi ki an einai...

ektos ths gnwrimias me to periballon oi klinikes gnwseis pou exei enas teleiofoitos giatros einai poly liges.

aparaitites omos, ase pou afto eksartatai apo to panepistimio. PX ta panepistimia sti suidia sou dinoun iperarketes praktikes gnoseis, simfona me filo mou pou spoudazei iatriki sti stokxolmi.

prepei oloi kai esy perissotero na katalabeis pws h iatriki MA8AINETE sthn eidikothta kai to agrotiko.

Mathainetai kai ekei, alla MATHENETAI KAI STA PANEPISTIMIA. Diladi den ginetai na mou les oti to 40% (den eimai sigouros gia to pososto stin ellada, sti suidia toso einai) ton mathimaton enos iatrikou panepistimiou pou einai ergastiria einai AXRISTO.

afou loipon o teleiofoitos sto megalo pososto apo 8ewria gnwrizei kai oxi apo pra3h KAI AFOU STH 8EWRIA E3ETAZETE giati emeis 8a prepei na apodykneioume tis praktikes mas ikanothtes?

Afto to afino anapantito. Opoios kserei na diavazei as vgalei ta simperasmata tou...

3ereis kapoion teleiofoito iatrikhs pou na apeidei3e tis PRAKTIKES TOU IKANOTHTES kapou? kai poies p[raktikes ikanothtes apedei3e.
sth 8ewria e3etazonte sxedon panta...sthn 8ewria 8a e3etazomaste ki emeis.

Oxi alla enan foititi pou perase diavazontas 8 ores ti mera, ton empistevesai pio poly apo enan pou perase sto panepistimio xoris eksetaseis. Pragmatika pes mou, afto sou fenetai paralogo os epixeirima?

kai opws eipa sth 8ewria meta apo 1.5-2 xronia dikatsa se megalo pososto pisteyw pws tous ellhnes foithtes TOUS EXOUME ANETA.

"meta apo 1.5-2 xronia dikatsa". Kai diafono sto oti tous exete aneta alla as min mpoume se afti ti sizitisi giati den tha teleiosoume pote.

[quote:2nrr602p]2. Eksetaseis mporeis na peraseis kai me plagious tropous. Kai tha mou peis "giati stis eksetastikes den pernas me plagious tropous ama thes?". Nai mporeis, alla to thema einai oti pios einai pio pithanos na perasei me plagious tropous: A. O gios tou megalogiatrou pou spoudazei roumania B. Kapoios pou exei os skopo tis zois tou na ginei giatros. Opote katalavaineis to skeptiko mou fantazomai... Kapoios pou exei faei 3 xronia gia na perasei stin iatriki, prepei na einai dixasmeni prosopikotita gia na arxisei ksafnika na pernaei mathimata ladonontas kai antigrafontas... Kapoios pou einai gios megalogiatrou kai exei starxidia tou tin iatriki malon etsi tha perasei... Opote epistrefoume pali sto oti mazi me tous 5 giatrous pou tha aksizoun pragmatika na pernane kai 10 kompogianites. Diafoneis??

ante na symfwnhsw...kai?[/quote:2nrr602p]

oraia... diladi an gia na peraseis esy perasoun kai 2 kompogianites den se enoxlei... Em.. ti na po... gnomi sou. Pantos an den isouna apofoitos voulgarias alla aplos politis kai se rotagane "thes na parei ptixeio iatrikis enas giatros an tautoxrona to paroun kai 2 kompogianites?" ti tha eleges?

ti exei na kanei ayto me ayta pou les ,dhladh to oti oi foithtes apo anatoliko mplok DEN A3IZOUN na dinoun e3etaseis kai na diekdikoun isotimia?

Nai alla oxi me to paron sistima kai AFOU exoun apodiksei tis praktikes tous gnoseis pano sto thema eksaskontas to epagelma gia 2-3 xronia stis xores pou to spoudasan i pou to anagnorizoun.

8a e3etazoume ta h8ika-synais8hmatika krithria tou 8ematos (to poso poly 8elei kapoios na ginei giatros) kai 8a dinoume ptyxia?
ayto to les sobara twra?

Oxi, den eipa na ta eksetazoume, eipa oti paizoun ena sovaro rolo sto an kapoios tha ginei kalos giatros.

egw pali 3erw pws prin merika xronia ena terastio pososto allou dhlwne sxoles kai meta tis panellhnies allou briskotan....kata proseggish eyxaristhmenoi htan oi epityxontes sto megalo tous pososto.
mhpws den eprepe na paroun kai aytoi ptyxia apo tis sxoles tous epeidh den h8elan px na ginoun gewponoi kai antegrafan epeidh bariontousan na perasoun ta ma8hmata?
den thn katalabainw thn logikh ayth kai sorry kiolas.

Edo den to aneptiksa pliros, as to anaptikso tora. Loipon to na eisai giatros proipothetei kapoies parapano gnoseis apo enan opoiodipote ptixeiouxo AEI. An ego px ksexaso to nomo tou Dahl kai ton xriasto kapou, apla tha anoikso ena vivlio kai tha ton vro. Esy omos otan tha eisai mprosta se enan astheni den exeis dikaioma na ksexaseis pou einai to neuro tou. Etsi eno ego me ena 60% vasi perno dikaios to ptixeio mou, enas giatros xreiazetai na exei parapano gnoseis pano sto antikeimeno tou. Afto den ginetai mono stin ellada alla pantou. Kathe xora omos to katoxironei diaforetika. Sti suidia px exeis mono 4 efkeries na peraseis kathe mathima, me vasi to 80% (kai oxi to60% pou exoun ta alla aei) kai an apotixeis esto kai me 79% gia 4 fores, epanalamvaneis tin iatriki apo to proto etos. Stin elada afto katoxironetai diaforetika, me eksontotikes panelinies, ki edo exo diafonies alla den einai to thema mas mias kai apotelei ki afto mia katoxirosi. STI ROUMANIA POS KATOXIRONETAI OTI ESY KAI OI SIMFOITITES SOU ANOIKETE STO TOP TON FOITITON OSTE NA AKSIZETE ISAKSIO PTIXEIO? Me to na pernate eksetaseis me vasi to 60% pou mporeite na tis parakampsete me merikes koutes tsigara? Prosekse, den leo oti esy to kaneis, esy mporei na eisai eusiniditos, leo omos oti kapoios asiniditos tha to kanei. Pes mas loipon, poia einai i katoxirosi pou exoume emeis oti oi simfoitites sou anoikoun sto TOP ton foititon oste na mporoun na apoktisoun tis gnoseis pou apaitei enas giatros. Perimeno.

prose3e kaneis la8os edw...opws eipa ...OI TELEIOFOITOI einai xalies sto megalo pososto tous....
oi teleiwmenoi me dikatsa EINAI ISOTIMOI TU ELLHNA TELEIOFOITOU IATRIKHS.

oi giatroi ek roumanias boulgarias klp apo apopsh gnwsewn kai epipedou spoudwn(alla kai xarakthra genikotera) mexri na paroun to DIKATSA EINAI SE pososto toulaxiston 80% GIA TON POUTSO.
afou parun to dikatsa to pososto peftei arketa isws kai se ena 40%.

Apofasise ti apo ta dio isxiei. Einai isotimoi i oxi? Faskeis kai antifaskeis, ti mia mas les oti to 40% ton teleiofoiton me dikatsa einai GTP tin alli oti einai isotimoi...

kai sth sygkrish kapoioi einai kalytroi twn ellhnwn teleiofoitwn kai kapoioi xeiroteroi(isws kapws perissoteroi) ALLA SIGOURA SE MESO ORO STO IDIO EPIPEDO.

OXI. TO 40% TON ELLINON TELEIODITON DEN EINAI GIA TO POUTSO. Sorry alla den einai. Mporei na se simferei na einai alla den einai. Ante na einai ena 1-2% ton ellinon teleiofoiton gia ton poutso. 40% ME TIPOTA DEN EINAI GIA TO POUTSO.



Oikonomiki analisi tha akolouthisei afou teleiosoume me ta parapano themata, kirios giati tora exo na teleioso kapoies alles douleies.

[Dunadan Ranger]

Ante pame pali dikatsa... Ma einai profanes oti to dikatsa den einai aksiokratiko (sou epanalamvano oti to master apo souidia DEN tha anagnoristei giati den einai sta suidika, paroti KANEIS den kanei edo master sta suidika, oute kan oi souidoi kai paroti ta panepistimia edo einai 2 klaseis anotera apo ta ellinika) alla afto den simainei kati... DILADI OK TO DIKATSA EINAI GIA TO POUTSO. Afto den to amfisvito, pame parakato?

den to amfisbhteis ,pisteyeis oti den prepei na yparxei h na yparxei ypo proypo8eseis epeidh den kanei kala thn douleia tou kai ap thn allh pisteyeis oti den prepei na anagnwrizonte ta ptyxia pou anagnwrizei.
mhpws den katalabainw kati?

Oraia diladi afto to 80% pou sti sintriptiki tou pleiopsifia apoteleitai apo gious megalogiatron, epidi exei vaseis tha prepei na exei to dikaioma dinontas kapoies eksetaseis na apoktisei isotimo ptyxeio me giatrous? Aftos pou prin 2 xronia adiaforouse?? DIladi pragmatika esy os giatros tha itheles sinadelfous pou piran to ptixeio tous pernontas mia eksetasi tou dikatsa eno oso isastan simfoithtes tous evlepes na adiaforoun??

OXI kai 3erw para pollous pou phran to dikatsa mesw gnwrimiwn h xwnwntas xrhma kai den 8a tous h8ela ws synadelfous.

opote epi tis ousias simfoneis oti i automati anagnorisi ton ptyxeion ton valkanikon xoron einai out of the question, afou tha epetrepe stous "safestata aneparkeis os giatrous apofoitous (diki sou gnomi)" na ginoun amesos giatroi, sosta?

BEBAIOTATA

Ginetai giati af'enos den iparxei tropos na epikirothei i aksiopistia ton valkanikon panepistimion, af'etairou oi mathites ton ellinikon panepistimion exoun perasei kai kapoies eksetaseis pou esy parekampses, opote einai adiko gia autous...

epeidh ola sou ta post basizonte sto 100% tous sto synais8hma kai thn adikia pou yfistante oi kahmenoi ellhnes foithtes pou noiw8oun oti o kopos tous p[aei strafh ...as to p[ame ekei
kai gia tous ellhnes foithtes einai adiko epeidh emeis kai polloi alloi xw8hkan stis agglies stis roumanies boulgaries kai de symmazeyete...alla kai gia mas einai adiko gia tous logous pou anelysa se ola mou ta post.
poio adiko einai megalytero?
na koroideyeis ton allo katamoutra kai na tou bgazeis to ladi?
h' na symbibazesai me die8neis nomous (opws esy aneferes) kai na rixneis se ena elaxisto pososto thn foithtikh sou koinothta iatrikhs ...GIATI PRAKTIKA TI AKRIBWS XANOUN OI FOITHTES IATRIKHS?
th douleia tous mhpws?de nomizw...
o koinwnikos ratsismos einia tetoios pou s ayto to shmeio profanws oi ellhnes fithtes bgainoun eynohmenoi.KAI stis listes anamonhs eidikothtas kai sto agrotiko kai stis ergasies san eley8eroi epaggelmaties...
to mono pou menei pleon opws esy o idios les einai na mas poune KAI AYTO pou les esy...
ESEIS DEN A3IZETE GIATI DEN PERASATE PANELLHNIES KAI EMEIS PERASAME.

mhn to rixneis sto synais8hma...xanei to nohma ths h olh syzhthsh.
kai dystyxws to kyrio epixeirhma sou ekei peftei.

Mporei esy na min to vlepeis etsi, alla einai PROFANES oti oi apofoitoi ton ellinikon panepistimion prepei kapos na epivravevontai gia tin prospatheia tous... Tora an esy theoreis dikaio na exei to idio ptixeio kapios pou exei dosei panelinies kai exei spoudasei apo ena panepistimio pou me ola ta strava tou exei kapoio kiros, me enan ipopsifio pou pire to ptixeio tou apo ena panepistimio safos mikroterou kirous XORIS na ginei epilogi ton ipopsifion, dikaioma sou, omos ego (kai i sintriptiki pliopsifia tou kosmou) diafonei.

swsth logikh ...as epibrabeysoume tous ellhnes foithtes gamwntas ap oles tis pleyres kai tis pantes tous balkanious...kai de meneis mono ekei ..proteineis kai thn mh anagnwrish ptyxiwn...

ti allo mporw na pw egw twra

mhpws eisai poly romantiko se shmeio na gayzeis? giati toso synais8hma
pragmatika den mporw na to katalabw....dhladh milame gia EPAGGELMATIES kai gia epaggelmata(pera ap to leitourghma) giati epikentrwnesai sto leitourghma kai mono?
en telh eleos m aytres tis panellhnies POTE OI PANELLHNIES DEN HTAN KRITIRIO tou kalou foithth kai tou kalou epaggelmatia..kai den ta lew egw ayta...ta lene kai ta legane eidikoi an8rwpoi epi tetoiwn 8ematwn...GIATI TO EXEIS KANEI KARAMELA ayto to gegonos?

[quote:z3t9777s]
kai sou epanalambanw gia NIosti fora....
paw sthn italia ....giati o mpampas exei lefta...xwnomai sth notia italia pou ladwnonte aberta.... xynw ladi pernw ta ma8hmata kai erxomai me to ptyxio edw kai to anagnwrizw xwris e3etaseis xwris tipota....gi ayto ti exeis na peis???
gi ayto DEN EXEI MILHSEI KAI DE MILAEI POTE KANEIS...

Nai exeis dikio edo, alla tora poio einai to epixeirima sou? Oti epidi afinoume tous Italous tsarlatanous na askoun tin iatriki prepei na tous afinoume olous? Episis ektos apo afto to peristatiko exo kai alla na sou anafero AKOMA XEIROTERA (gios megalogiatrou spoudase proto etos sti voulgaria kai afou o mpampas evale ta megala mesa pire metagrafi gia athina kai tora askei iatriki me ptixeio apo tin iatriki athinon parakalo). Afto ti simainei? Oti epidi iparxoun 5-10 strava sto sistima na ta kanoume kamia 20aria?[/quote:z3t9777s]


to epixeirhma mou einai OXI MESOBEZIKES LYSEIS ....

h tous gamame olous h kanoume thn papia....
den bgazoume ta apw8ymena mas se mia sygkekrimenh omada an8rwpwn epeidh etsi mas symferei.

[quote:z3t9777s]
an den mporeis na katalabeis OTI OLOI EXOUN TO DIKAIWMA NA DWSOUN E3ETASEIS KAI AYTOI POU A3IZOUN NA PERASOUN (giati an perasoun tis SYGKEKRIMENES E3ETASEIS 8a to a3izoun xwris deyterh koubenta(exw kanei 6-7 erwthseis se eidikeyomeno eidiko pa8ologo kai me koitage xwris na milaei)) ,den mporw na pw h na kanw kati allo...
sou eipa ..exeis thn apopsh sou...

I apopsi mou opos sou eipa den einai oti esy prosopika den prepei na apoktiseis isotimo ptyxeio, alla oti mazi me sena pou tha pareis to ptixeio tha to paroun kai aloi 2 gioi megalogiatron (dika sou pososta- sou thimizo oti eipes oti 40% ton valkanogiatron me dikatsa den to aksizoun)... Profanos gi' auto adiaforeis omos...[/quote:z3t9777s]

kai kala 8a kanoun
ki emena den mou aresei giati MPOREI NA dysfhmisoun th douleia mou ws prwhn balkanioi foithtes.
ti na kanw?
na tous apagoreysw na dwsoun e3etaseis?
as fronthsei to kratos na xtyphsei thn iatrikh (KAI GENIKOTERA THN AKADHMAIKH) koinothta pou apotelei "kratos en krath" gia na eklypsoun tetoia fenomena.

[quote:z3t9777s]
S A F E S T A T A kai diafwnw
na diafwnhsw perissotero den ginete
prepei na pareis xampari kapoia stigmh pws oi teleiofoitoi iatrikhs den exoun thn ikanothta na KANOUN TIPOTA ek twn pragmatwn.

Em... oxi... Sorry alla afto pou les den isxiei... Enas teleiofoitos iatrikis ektos apo theoritikes gnoseis exei PX anoiksei kai 5-6 ptomata prosexontas pou einai to sikoti, oxi an exei oraia vizia i simfititria tou, eno esy o idios paradexesai oti to 80% ton apofoiton valkanion den exoun endiaferon gia tis spoudes tous... [/quote:z3t9777s]

e twra de ftaiw egw pou den 3ereis
ayta pou les den exoun KAMMIA SXESH me praktikh iatrikh
kai panw sto paradeigma sou se plhroforw (opws 3anaeipa kapou) oti oi ellhnes foithtes iatrikhs blepoun ptwma 3-4 fores sta 6 xronia (kai an to doun ki ayto)
oi balkanioi ap thn allh gia 2 xronia exoun ka8e mera sta ergasthria tous ptwma kai fouleyoun panw s ayto.

kai pali to paradeigma panw sthn anaotimh tou an8rwpou DEN EXEI NA KANEI SE TIPOTA ME thn klinikh iatrikh

[quote:z3t9777s]
den exoun empeiria klinikhs iatrikhs ka8ws ta ergasthria kai oi parousies sthn klinikh aneka8en den edinan tetoia efodia.

simfonoi, alla einai diaforetiko pragma na THES na gineis giatros kai se afta ta elipi esto ergastiria NA PARAKOLOUTHEIS ME ENDIAFERON apo to na eisai enas gios megalogiatrou pou ksineis ta arxidia sou kai na adiaforeis sta ergastiria afta, oso anelipi ki an einai...[/quote:z3t9777s]


epanalambanw ...teineis sto akyro ka8ws basizesai MONO se synais8hmatikous paragontes...3ANAKOITA TO APRADEIGMA ME TON GEWPONO (kai bale ekei allo epaggelma an 8es) kai to an tou aresei h sxolh tou klp pou eipa pio panw.
ektos aytou...mhpws exeis idea POSA PAIDIA spoudazoun iatrikh se ellhnika panepisthmia epeidh tous piezoun oi goneis tous?kai oxi epeidh einai proswpikh tous epilogh ARA einai 8ymata tis megalomanias twn gonewn tous..
mhn epikentrwnesai ekei ,yparxei antilogos kai einai pio barynousas shmasias.

[quote:z3t9777s]
ektos ths gnwrimias me to periballon oi klinikes gnwseis pou exei enas teleiofoitos giatros einai poly liges.

aparaitites omos, ase pou afto eksartatai apo to panepistimio. PX ta panepistimia sti suidia sou dinoun iperarketes praktikes gnoseis, simfona me filo mou pou spoudazei iatriki sti stokxolmi. [/quote:z3t9777s]


eleos oxi allh souhdia pls

[quote:z3t9777s]
prepei oloi kai esy perissotero na katalabeis pws h iatriki MA8AINETE sthn eidikothta kai to agrotiko.

Mathainetai kai ekei, alla MATHENETAI KAI STA PANEPISTIMIA. Diladi den ginetai na mou les oti to 40% (den eimai sigouros gia to pososto stin ellada, sti suidia toso einai) ton mathimaton enos iatrikou panepistimiou pou einai ergastiria einai AXRISTO.[/quote:z3t9777s]

kai oxi mono 40 isws kai parapanw.
ti nomizeis oti einai ta iatrika ergasthria?
bazoume katw enan as8enh kai ton egxeirizoume ...tou kanoume ena bypass kai ton kleinoume kai ap thn epomenh oi foithtes mporoun na egxeirhsoun ka8ws exoun pleon gnwseis xeirourgikhs kai exoun praktikh empeiria sta xeirourgeia..?
den einai hlektrologia na allazeis tis lampes kai na tis syndeseis me tous pyknwtes kai tis antistaseis...
ta ergasthria sthn iatrikh sxolh sthn megalh pleopshfia tous einai se 8ewrhtiko epipedo...blepeis kai akous...ayta.

[quote:z3t9777s]
3ereis kapoion teleiofoito iatrikhs pou na apeidei3e tis PRAKTIKES TOU IKANOTHTES kapou? kai poies p[raktikes ikanothtes apedei3e.
sth 8ewria e3etazonte sxedon panta...sthn 8ewria 8a e3etazomaste ki emeis.

Oxi alla enan foititi pou perase diavazontas 8 ores ti mera, ton empistevesai pio poly apo enan pou perase sto panepistimio xoris eksetaseis. Pragmatika pes mou, afto sou fenetai paralogo os epixeirima?[/quote:z3t9777s]


nai
kai lypamai pou esena sou fenete logiko.
den 3erw poso xronwn eisai ....alla den perimena pote na akousw apo an8rwpo pou exei bgei sto e3wteriko kai exei spoudasei na mou leei oti empisteyete perissotero kapoion epeidh diabazei 8 wres th mera kai tou aresei h iatrikh.LES KAI 3EREIS ESY POIOS TO EKANE AYTO H MPOREIS NA TO MA8EIS.
ektos bebaia kai an exeis thn idea oti oloi oi giatroi sthn ellada anhkoun s aythn thn kathgoria...pou an to pisteyeis 8a lyph8w akoma perissotero gia sena.

[quote:z3t9777s]
kai opws eipa sth 8ewria meta apo 1.5-2 xronia dikatsa se megalo pososto pisteyw pws tous ellhnes foithtes TOUS EXOUME ANETA.

"meta apo 1.5-2 xronia dikatsa". Kai diafono sto oti tous exete aneta alla as min mpoume se afti ti sizitisi giati den tha teleiosoume pote.[/quote:z3t9777s]

nai meta apo 1.5-2 kai kalo einai na to pistepseis opws exei ginei to dikatsa ta teleytaia 4-5 xronia.

oraia... diladi an gia na peraseis esy perasoun kai 2 kompogianites den se enoxlei... Em.. ti na po... gnomi sou. Pantos an den isouna apofoitos voulgarias alla aplos politis kai se rotagane "thes na parei ptixeio iatrikis enas giatros an tautoxrona to paroun kai 2 kompogianites?" ti tha eleges?

gia na peraseis dikatsa h 8a ladwseis/xwseis meso...h 8a diabaseis...
me enoxlei mno sthn prwth periptwsh ...sth deyterh eisai isotimos an mh ti allo tou ellhna teleiofitou.
h prwth periptwsh einai mikros ari8mos.

[quote:z3t9777s]
ti exei na kanei ayto me ayta pou les ,dhladh to oti oi foithtes apo anatoliko mplok DEN A3IZOUN na dinoun e3etaseis kai na diekdikoun isotimia?

Nai alla oxi me to paron sistima kai AFOU exoun apodiksei tis praktikes tous gnoseis pano sto thema eksaskontas to epagelma gia 2-3 xronia stis xores pou to spoudasan i pou to anagnorizoun.[/quote:z3t9777s]

e? dhladh?
mhpws ennoeis oti prepei na douleyoume 2-3 xronia kai meta na erxomaste na paroume isotimia?
an ennoeis kati tetoio apla einai e3wfreniko.
epanalambanw ....O TELEIOFOITOS IATRIKHS DEN MPOREI NA ERGASTEI ws giatros
EINAI KATANOHTO AYTO?

[quote:z3t9777s]8a e3etazoume ta h8ika-synais8hmatika krithria tou 8ematos (to poso poly 8elei kapoios na ginei giatros) kai 8a dinoume ptyxia?
ayto to les sobara twra?

Oxi, den eipa na ta eksetazoume, eipa oti paizoun ena sovaro rolo sto an kapoios tha ginei kalos giatros.[/quote:z3t9777s]


nai eipes...
oxi oti isxyei kiolas.
h toulaxiston den isxyei OSO esy 8eleis na pisteyeis.

Edo den to aneptiksa pliros, as to anaptikso tora. Loipon to na eisai giatros proipothetei kapoies parapano gnoseis apo enan opoiodipote ptixeiouxo AEI. An ego px ksexaso to nomo tou Dahl kai ton xriasto kapou, apla tha anoikso ena vivlio kai tha ton vro. Esy omos otan tha eisai mprosta se enan astheni den exeis dikaioma na ksexaseis pou einai to neuro tou. Etsi eno ego me ena 60% vasi perno dikaios to ptixeio mou, enas giatros xreiazetai na exei parapano gnoseis pano sto antikeimeno tou. Afto den ginetai mono stin ellada alla pantou. Kathe xora omos to katoxironei diaforetika. Sti suidia px exeis mono 4 efkeries na peraseis kathe mathima, me vasi to 80% (kai oxi to60% pou exoun ta alla aei) kai an apotixeis esto kai me 79% gia 4 fores, epanalamvaneis tin iatriki apo to proto etos. Stin elada afto katoxironetai diaforetika, me eksontotikes panelinies, ki edo exo diafonies alla den einai to thema mas mias kai apotelei ki afto mia katoxirosi. STI ROUMANIA POS KATOXIRONETAI OTI ESY KAI OI SIMFOITITES SOU ANOIKETE STO TOP TON FOITITON OSTE NA AKSIZETE ISAKSIO PTIXEIO? Me to na pernate eksetaseis me vasi to 60% pou mporeite na tis parakampsete me merikes koutes tsigara? Prosekse, den leo oti esy to kaneis, esy mporei na eisai eusiniditos, leo omos oti kapoios asiniditos tha to kanei. Pes mas loipon, poia einai i katoxirosi pou exoume emeis oti oi simfoitites sou anoikoun sto TOP ton foititon oste na mporoun na apoktisoun tis gnoseis pou apaitei enas giatros. Perimeno.

8a se parakalousa na mhn 3ananafer8eis sth souhdia sto topic ayto ka8ws milame gia anagnwrish kai spoudes sthn ellada kai ta balkania.
kai ta 2 ayta merh den exoun kammia sxesh me tis skandinabikes xwres.
pame parakatw.
h bash tou 60% einai sto dikatsa kai den parakamptete me merikes koutes tsigara.

den 3erw poios exei milhsei gia koutes tsigara ...alla ginontousan sta balkania prin apo 20-25 xronia.
pleon h akribh tarifa mporei na ftasei 3000E.
opote katalabaineis oti ta pragmata den einai etsi opws akribws ta skeftesai.
kai se plhroforw pws den einai polloi aytoi pou dinoun 3000 e gia na peraosun ena ma8hma xwris na to diabasoun.

oson afra ooola t alla pou eipes gia top foithtwn kai gia zwes an8rwpwn...
milas opws milaei o ka8e enas pou DEN EXEI SXESH me thn iatrikh.
me ena pompwdes yfos wste na dineis emfash sta shmeia pou se symferoun.
ta pragmata DEN EINAI akribws etsi.
einai kai etsi.
mhn meneis mono ekei.

prose3e kaneis la8os edw...opws eipa ...OI TELEIOFOITOI einai xalies sto megalo pososto tous....
oi teleiwmenoi me dikatsa EINAI ISOTIMOI TU ELLHNA TELEIOFOITOU IATRIKHS.

oi giatroi ek roumanias boulgarias klp apo apopsh gnwsewn kai epipedou spoudwn(alla kai xarakthra genikotera) mexri na paroun to DIKATSA EINAI SE pososto toulaxiston 80% GIA TON POUTSO.
afou parun to dikatsa to pososto peftei arketa isws kai se ena 40%.

Apofasise ti apo ta dio isxiei. Einai isotimoi i oxi? Faskeis kai antifaskeis, ti mia mas les oti to 40% ton teleiofoiton me dikatsa einai GTP tin alli oti einai isotimoi...

kai ta 2 isxyoun milame gia pososta kai to 60% safws yperterei ws ari8mos kai xarakthrizei to synolo.

[quote:z3t9777s]
kai sth sygkrish kapoioi einai kalytroi twn ellhnwn teleiofoitwn kai kapoioi xeiroteroi(isws kapws perissoteroi) ALLA SIGOURA SE MESO ORO STO IDIO EPIPEDO.

OXI. TO 40% TON ELLINON TELEIODITON DEN EINAI GIA TO POUTSO. Sorry alla den einai. Mporei na se simferei na einai alla den einai. Ante na einai ena 1-2% ton ellinon teleiofoiton gia ton poutso. 40% ME TIPOTA DEN EINAI GIA TO POUTSO.[/quote:z3t9777s]

milas ws gnwsths ths katastashs?
h pali bazeis to synais8hma kai thn yperaspish twn ellhnwn foithtwn ws gnwmona twn posostwn sou?

[katwrimos]

den to amfisbhteis ,pisteyeis oti den prepei na yparxei h na yparxei ypo proypo8eseis epeidh den kanei kala thn douleia tou kai ap thn allh pisteyeis oti den prepei na anagnwrizonte ta ptyxia pou anagnwrizei.
mhpws den katalabainw kati?

Sinoptika: prepei na iparxei kati san to dikatsa, alla oxi opos einai tora. Vasika prepei na iparxei poly pio sigekrimeni nomothesia

epeidh ola sou ta post basizonte sto 100% tous sto synais8hma kai thn adikia pou yfistante oi kahmenoi ellhnes foithtes pou noiw8oun oti o kopos tous p[aei strafh ...as to p[ame ekei

Den einai sinesthima. To epixeirima GRAPSAN KALITERA APO ESAS STIS PANELLINIES einai nomizo antikeimenikotato kai logikotato.

kai gia tous ellhnes foithtes einai adiko epeidh emeis kai polloi alloi xw8hkan stis agglies stis roumanies boulgaries kai de symmazeyete...alla kai gia mas einai adiko gia tous logous pou anelysa se ola mou ta post.
poio adiko einai megalytero?

Me vasi ta dika sou pososta, einai adiko gia to 20% ton giatron ek valkanion (oi ipoloipoi opos les einai asxetoi) eno einai adiko gia to 100% ton ellinon foititon. Pia einai i mikroteri adikia?

na koroideyeis ton allo katamoutra kai na tou bgazeis to ladi?
h' na symbibazesai me die8neis nomous (opws esy aneferes) kai na rixneis se ena elaxisto pososto thn foithtikh sou koinothta iatrikhs ...GIATI PRAKTIKA TI AKRIBWS XANOUN OI FOITHTES IATRIKHS?

Afou se endiaferei mono i praktiki pleura: To dikaioma gia isaksious sinadelfous. Afou kai monos sou les oti mono ena 20% einai isaksio...
Kai to oti esy agnoeis tin ithiki pleura tou thematos (diladi tin epivravevsi ton foithton pou perasan me panelinies) den simainei oti afti den iparxei.

mhn to rixneis sto synais8hma...xanei to nohma ths h olh syzhthsh.
kai dystyxws to kyrio epixeirhma sou ekei peftei.

Sou ksanaleo oti oi panelinies den einai sinaisthimatiko kritirio. Einai antikeimeniko, aksiokratiko kai logiko. Asxetos me oti diafoneies exeis pros to sistima ton panelinion.

swsth logikh ...as epibrabeysoume tous ellhnes foithtes gamwntas ap oles tis pleyres kai tis pantes tous balkanious...kai de meneis mono ekei ..proteineis kai thn mh anagnwrish ptyxiwn...

Sou eksigisa me vasi pia logiki SIN to oti den xriazontai parapano giatroi apo osous apofoitoun apo ta elinika panepistimia. Katalavaino oti to epixeirima "I oikonomia tis xoras den xreiazetai plithora giatron" den sou aresei, alla ti na kanoume?? Esy aloste milas gia tin praktiki pleura tou thematos...

en telh eleos m aytres tis panellhnies POTE OI PANELLHNIES DEN HTAN KRITIRIO tou kalou foithth kai tou kalou epaggelmatia..kai den ta lew egw ayta...ta lene kai ta legane eidikoi an8rwpoi epi tetoiwn 8ematwn...GIATI TO EXEIS KANEI KARAMELA ayto to gegonos?

Giati (toulaxiston otan edosa ego) itan to MONADIKO pragma stin ellada pou oso ladoma kai na erixnes an den aksizes den pernages. Diladi esy theoreis oti oi panelinies den pezoun kanena rolo?

to epixeirhma mou einai OXI MESOBEZIKES LYSEIS ....

h tous gamame olous h kanoume thn papia....
den bgazoume ta apw8ymena mas se mia sygkekrimenh omada an8rwpwn epeidh etsi mas symferei.

Den ginetai epidi sas simferei. Ginetai epidi einai paranomi i mi anagnorisi ton ptixeion tis italias, i tis tsexias. Mazi sou an den itan paranomi, na eprepe na perasoun ki aftoi dikatsa. Alla epidi to systima exei mia tripa (to oti logo EE den mporoume na amfisvitisoume ta italika ptixeia) den simainei oti prepei na anoiksoume alles 5.

[quote:2yaxs3h9]I apopsi mou opos sou eipa den einai oti esy prosopika den prepei na apoktiseis isotimo ptyxeio, alla oti mazi me sena pou tha pareis to ptixeio tha to paroun kai aloi 2 gioi megalogiatron (dika sou pososta- sou thimizo oti eipes oti 40% ton valkanogiatron me dikatsa den to aksizoun)... Profanos gi' auto adiaforeis omos...

kai kala 8a kanoun[/quote:2yaxs3h9]

KAI KALA THA KANOUN???

ok ti allo na po...

ki emena den mou aresei giati MPOREI NA dysfhmisoun th douleia mou ws prwhn balkanioi foithtes.
ti na kanw?
na tous apagoreysw na dwsoun e3etaseis?

Na tous epivaleis na apodeiksoun tin isotimia tous me antikeimeniko kai mi diavlito tropo

epanalambanw ...teineis sto akyro ka8ws basizesai MONO se synais8hmatikous paragontes...3ANAKOITA TO APRADEIGMA ME TON GEWPONO (kai bale ekei allo epaggelma an 8es) kai to an tou aresei h sxolh tou klp pou eipa pio panw.

Profanos apo enan geopono den zitas tis idies ikanotites apo enan giatro opote to paradeigma einai atopo.

[quote:2yaxs3h9][quote:2yaxs3h9]
ektos ths gnwrimias me to periballon oi klinikes gnwseis pou exei enas teleiofoitos giatros einai poly liges.

aparaitites omos, ase pou afto eksartatai apo to panepistimio. PX ta panepistimia sti suidia sou dinoun iperarketes praktikes gnoseis, simfona me filo mou pou spoudazei iatriki sti stokxolmi. [/quote:2yaxs3h9]


eleos oxi allh souhdia pls[/quote:2yaxs3h9]

FOVERO EPIXEIRIMA!!


(paraleipo megalo quote peri tou an exei simasia i praktiki askisi eksaskisi gia enan ipopsifio giatro)

Px ego otan eixa kanei mia egxirisi, itan parontes 2 foithtes iatrikis. Kai nai to na exeis dei pos ginetai mia egxirisi einai simantiko kai den apodiknietai meso eksetaseon...

[quote:2yaxs3h9][quote:2yaxs3h9]
3ereis kapoion teleiofoito iatrikhs pou na apeidei3e tis PRAKTIKES TOU IKANOTHTES kapou? kai poies p[raktikes ikanothtes apedei3e.
sth 8ewria e3etazonte sxedon panta...sthn 8ewria 8a e3etazomaste ki emeis.

Oxi alla enan foititi pou perase diavazontas 8 ores ti mera, ton empistevesai pio poly apo enan pou perase sto panepistimio xoris eksetaseis. Pragmatika pes mou, afto sou fenetai paralogo os epixeirima?[/quote:2yaxs3h9]


nai
kai lypamai pou esena sou fenete logiko.
den 3erw poso xronwn eisai ....alla den perimena pote na akousw apo an8rwpo pou exei bgei sto e3wteriko kai exei spoudasei na mou leei oti empisteyete perissotero kapoion epeidh diabazei 8 wres th mera kai tou aresei h iatrikh.LES KAI 3EREIS ESY POIOS TO EKANE AYTO H MPOREIS NA TO MA8EIS.[/quote:2yaxs3h9]

Diladi to gegonos oti aftoi perasan EPIDI MPOROUSAN eno eseis oxi EPIDI DEN MPOROUSATE den leei tipota gia tin poiotita ton foithton??

ektos bebaia kai an exeis thn idea oti oloi oi giatroi sthn ellada anhkoun s aythn thn kathgoria...pou an to pisteyeis 8a lyph8w akoma perissotero gia sena.

E profanos oxi, den eipa pouthena kati tetoio

[quote:2yaxs3h9][quote:2yaxs3h9]
ti exei na kanei ayto me ayta pou les ,dhladh to oti oi foithtes apo anatoliko mplok DEN A3IZOUN na dinoun e3etaseis kai na diekdikoun isotimia?

Nai alla oxi me to paron sistima kai AFOU exoun apodiksei tis praktikes tous gnoseis pano sto thema eksaskontas to epagelma gia 2-3 xronia stis xores pou to spoudasan i pou to anagnorizoun.[/quote:2yaxs3h9]

e? dhladh?
mhpws ennoeis oti prepei na douleyoume 2-3 xronia kai meta na erxomaste na paroume isotimia?an ennoeis kati tetoio apla einai e3wfreniko. [/quote:2yaxs3h9]

nai giati einai enas antikeimenikos paragontas na apodeikseis oti eisai ikanos gia na eisai giatros... Opoiodipote allagi sto sistima tha epetrepe esto kai enan parapano asxeto-giatro den einai apodekti kata ti gnomi mou. Apo tin alli an exeis eksaskisei to epagelma gia 2-3 xronia tote aftos einai enas ANTIKEIMENIKOS tropos na apodikseis oti mporeis na eisai giatros... Mporei na mi se simferei, alla den fantazomai na amfisteis tin antikeimenikotita mias tetoias methodou...

[quote:2yaxs3h9]
Edo den to aneptiksa pliros, as to anaptikso tora. Loipon to na eisai giatros proipothetei kapoies parapano gnoseis apo enan opoiodipote ptixeiouxo AEI. An ego px ksexaso to nomo tou Dahl kai ton xriasto kapou, apla tha anoikso ena vivlio kai tha ton vro. Esy omos otan tha eisai mprosta se enan astheni den exeis dikaioma na ksexaseis pou einai to neuro tou. Etsi eno ego me ena 60% vasi perno dikaios to ptixeio mou, enas giatros xreiazetai na exei parapano gnoseis pano sto antikeimeno tou. Afto den ginetai mono stin ellada alla pantou. Kathe xora omos to katoxironei diaforetika. Sti suidia px exeis mono 4 efkeries na peraseis kathe mathima, me vasi to 80% (kai oxi to60% pou exoun ta alla aei) kai an apotixeis esto kai me 79% gia 4 fores, epanalamvaneis tin iatriki apo to proto etos. Stin elada afto katoxironetai diaforetika, me eksontotikes panelinies, ki edo exo diafonies alla den einai to thema mas mias kai apotelei ki afto mia katoxirosi. STI ROUMANIA POS KATOXIRONETAI OTI ESY KAI OI SIMFOITITES SOU ANOIKETE STO TOP TON FOITITON OSTE NA AKSIZETE ISAKSIO PTIXEIO? Me to na pernate eksetaseis me vasi to 60% pou mporeite na tis parakampsete me merikes koutes tsigara? Prosekse, den leo oti esy to kaneis, esy mporei na eisai eusiniditos, leo omos oti kapoios asiniditos tha to kanei. Pes mas loipon, poia einai i katoxirosi pou exoume emeis oti oi simfoitites sou anoikoun sto TOP ton foititon oste na mporoun na apoktisoun tis gnoseis pou apaitei enas giatros. Perimeno.

8a se parakalousa na mhn 3ananafer8eis sth souhdia sto topic ayto ka8ws milame gia anagnwrish kai spoudes sthn ellada kai ta balkania.
kai ta 2 ayta merh den exoun kammia sxesh me tis skandinabikes xwres.
pame parakatw.[/quote:2yaxs3h9]

Proton esy aneferes protos ti suidia. (an thimamai kala)

Defteron esy anafereis tin italia, tin austria klp, ego giati na min anafero ti suidia?

Triton den anafero mono ti suidia. Paromoio sistima (me diskoles eksetaseis) epikratei kai se alles xores (px germania) eno stin elada to ipsilo epipedo ton foititon eksasfalizetai meso ton panelinion. Sta panepistimia sas pos eksasfalizetai?

Tetarton giati na min anafero ti suidia? TI paei na pei einai skandinaviki xora? Diladi pes mou ena sovaro epixeirima giati o mesos souidos asthenis aksizei ipodeesteri metaxeirisi apo ton meso ellina (giati i elastikopoihsh ton kritirion anagnorisis ton giatron einai ipovathmisi tou epipedou ton giatron ek ton pragmaton)...

h bash tou 60% einai sto dikatsa kai den parakamptete me merikes koutes tsigara.

I vasi stis eksetaseis sti roumania poso einai? Kai sta posa xamena mathimata epanalamvaneis to etos? Kai ti eidous eksasfalisi exei o mesos asthenis (antistoixi me aftes pou anefera parapano gia ellada kai suidia) oti aftoi pou tha aopfoitisoun apo ta roumanika panepistimia exoun to idio epipedo me aftous pou tha apofoithsoun apo ta ellinika?

den 3erw poios exei milhsei gia koutes tsigara ...alla ginontousan sta balkania prin apo 20-25 xronia.
pleon h akribh tarifa mporei na ftasei 3000E.

I aderfi tou dragonlord pou teleiose iatriki athina... Mipos einai kai afti asxeti opos ego?

oson afra ooola t alla pou eipes gia top foithtwn kai gia zwes an8rwpwn...
milas opws milaei o ka8e enas pou DEN EXEI SXESH me thn iatrikh.
me ena pompwdes yfos wste na dineis emfash sta shmeia pou se symferoun.
ta pragmata DEN EINAI akribws etsi.
einai kai etsi.
mhn meneis mono ekei.

Einai etsi, se kathe xora to pio diskolo ptixeio na apoktithei einai tou giatrou, giati apla ta perithoria lathous einai elaxista. Kai plz stamata to "den exeis sxesi me tin iatriki" giati af enos exo amesi epafi me tin akadimaiki pleura tou thematos af'etairou theoro ti mana mou aksiopisti pigi afou (opos kai kathe farmakopoios me 25eti pira) einai se amesi thesi na krinei tin apotelesmatikotita enos giatrou.

prose3e kaneis la8os edw...opws eipa ...OI TELEIOFOITOI einai xalies sto megalo pososto tous....
oi teleiwmenoi me dikatsa EINAI ISOTIMOI TU ELLHNA TELEIOFOITOU IATRIKHS.

[quote:2yaxs3h9]

oi giatroi ek roumanias boulgarias klp apo apopsh gnwsewn kai epipedou spoudwn(alla kai xarakthra genikotera) mexri na paroun to DIKATSA EINAI SE pososto toulaxiston 80% GIA TON POUTSO.
afou parun to dikatsa to pososto peftei arketa isws kai se ena 40%.

Apofasise ti apo ta dio isxiei. Einai isotimoi i oxi? Faskeis kai antifaskeis, ti mia mas les oti to 40% ton teleiofoiton me dikatsa einai GTP tin alli oti einai isotimoi...

kai ta 2 isxyoun milame gia pososta kai to 60% safws yperterei ws ari8mos kai xarakthrizei to synolo.[/quote:2yaxs3h9]

Edo einai to TELOS TIS LOGIKIS.

Protasi dunadan 1: to 40% ton apofoiton valkanion me dikatsa einai asxetoi

Protasi dunadan 2: Oloi osoi exoun dikatsa einai isotimoi ton ellinon giatron

EDO DEN VLEPEIS MIA MEGAAAAAAAAAAAAALI ANTIFASI???

[quote:2yaxs3h9][quote:2yaxs3h9]
kai sth sygkrish kapoioi einai kalytroi twn ellhnwn teleiofoitwn kai kapoioi xeiroteroi(isws kapws perissoteroi) ALLA SIGOURA SE MESO ORO STO IDIO EPIPEDO.

OXI. TO 40% TON ELLINON TELEIODITON DEN EINAI GIA TO POUTSO. Sorry alla den einai. Mporei na se simferei na einai alla den einai. Ante na einai ena 1-2% ton ellinon teleiofoiton gia ton poutso. 40% ME TIPOTA DEN EINAI GIA TO POUTSO.[/quote:2yaxs3h9]

milas ws gnwsths ths katastashs?
h pali bazeis to synais8hma kai thn yperaspish twn ellhnwn foithtwn ws gnwmona twn posostwn sou?[/quote:2yaxs3h9][/quote]

Diladi simfona me esena to 40% ton apofoiton iatrikis ellinikon panepistimion einai asxetoi?

[Dunadan Ranger]

sorry alla kourasthka ..leme sxedon se ka8e post ta idia pros8etontas kati parapanw...8a sou apanthsw kai gia ta pm edw...xwris na anaferw ti eipw8hke.

symperasmatika

1on) oi balkanikes xwres sto mono pragma pou ysteroun einai h ylikotexnikh ypodomh sthn iatrikh episthmh...se 8ewritikes gnwseis mia xara isa3ies einai.
to 8ema einai oti plh8wra foithtwn einai gia ton mpoutso gia doaforous logous mexri na paroun to ptyxio tous
afou paroun to ptyxio (yparxoun kai kapoioi entelws teleiwmenoi pou den to pernoun) oi perissoteroi ap aytous 8a dwsoun dikatsa se 2 ma8hmata xeirourgikh kai pa8ologia(olh thn didaktea ylh iatrikhs sta 6 xronia)
ka8e fora to pososto pou pernaei einai etsi ftiagmenes oi e3etaseis kai ta 8emata wste na einai 15% peripou tou synolikou ari8mou e3etazomenwn.ap ayto to 15% ena 5% sxedon panta pernaei me meso h me ladwma to dikatsa.
kai menei ena 10% ka8e fora pou pernaei me to spa8i tou.
telos se 3 xronia ayta ta pragmata 8a einai parel8on ka8ws h EE krinei skopimo na stamathsoun tetoia fenomena kai h na ekleipsoun h na antikatasta8oun apo praktikh e3askhsh 6-12 mhnwn xwris e3etaseis.

2on) ayta pou les gia tis panellhnies einai EN merh swsta ka8ws opws sou eipa yparxun polles skepseis ws antilogos.den mporw na katsw na tis anaferw, eipa kapoies den sou ekanan klp.
to 8ema einai oti TO SYSTHMA EINAI ETSI kai einai ADIKO gia olous alla poly perissotero gia mas.
TI PREPEI NA GINEI GIA TA EPOMENA 3 XRONIA wste na mhn xreiastei polloi na perimenoun tosa xronia gia na tous anagnwrisei OUTWS H ALLWS.?
A) katarghsh tou dikatsa
b) analambanoun thn ey8ynh ta panepisthmia wste na xwristoun oi foithtes stis perioxes tous.
c) e3etaseis ws exoun alla me gnwmona thn didaktea ylh kai oxi alla nt allwn
d) epopteia twn teleiofoitwn se praktikh e3askish toulaxiston gia 6 mhnes se panepisthmiako nosokomeio apo ka8hghtes pou 8a tous e3etasoun.me parousies klp
e) proforikes kai graptes e3etaseis.
f) DWREAN E3ETASEIS 3 fores to xrono kalokairi f8inoporo xeimwna.


3on) oson afora thn iatrikh kai ayta pou lew pws den eisai gnwsths klp
gia na katalabeis kapoia pragmata prepei na exeis spoudasei kai na douleyeis san giatros h na exeis KLINIKH empeiria.
to na peis an enas giatros einai kalos h oxi den mporeis na ton krineis an kanei tous allous kala...

stis perissoteres eidikothtes o metrios apo ton kalo giatro dyskola mporoun na diakri8oun...
se kanena epaggelma den mporw na krinw kai malista na KATAKRINW kapoion an den gnwrizw thn douleia tou kai ton tomea tou.
genikotera epeidh h iatrikh EINAI TOSO E3EIDIKEYMENH EPISTHMH den mporw na dextw ton ka8ena na bgazei AY8AIRETA kai me ta dika tou krithria symperasmata.
kai dysthxws ayto kaneis esy yposthrizontas oti exeis tis gnwmes ths mhteras sou pou eiani 25 xronia farmakopoios kai mporei na 3exwrisei tous kalous ap tous kakous giatrous apo ta farmaka...opws sou eipa kai sta pm ...ayta einai toulaxiston asteia (toulaxiston gia mena pou t akouw)
enta3ei gia thn periptwsh den milaw kai de lew tipota allo.

telos den yparxei periptwsh na se peisw gia tipota (emena opws sou eipa den ginete na me peiseis ..egw ta zw ...den mporw na afhsw thn pragmatikothta kai na pisw to VR) exeis th gnwmh sou kai kala kaneis..
menw mono se ayto pou mou eipes gia to dikatsa kai gia tou symfoithtes mou kai gia to poios ftaiei gia thn olh katastash kai se poion na rixnw tis ey8ynes.

den rixnw tis ey8ynes se kanenan ap tous 2 opws ka8esai kai pisteyeis ...
rixnw tis ey8ynes se mena kai den zhtaw e3ilasthria 8ymata.
ekneyrizomai omws afantasta akribws epeidh tis ey8ynes tis pernw egw kai den tis rixnw se allous ama akouw SYMFOITHTES MOU NA LENE "FTAIEI TO KOLOKRATOS KAI TO DIKATSA GIA OLA" kai ama akouw an8rwpous asxetous me thn olh katastash na fwnazoun "GIA OLA FTAINE OI FOITHTES POU DEN A3IZOUN TIPOTAklpklpklp"
esy anhkeis sth deyterh kathgoria.
sou eipa kapoia pragmata den ta dexesai exei kalws...np
proxwrame parakatw
esy otan 8a mpaineis se iatreio(sthn ellada) 8a rwtas pou exei spoudasei o giatros gia na sigoureyesai kai oute gata oute zhmia
ase pou sou eipa....oso kai na fwnazeis ...yparxei kai EE(8eo dikaiosynhs ton lew egw gia thn asydosia pou epikratei sthn ellada) kai pernei apofaseis kai ola 8a ftia3oune pros to kalytero.

[katwrimos]

kala ok as skaso ki ego giati to kourasame.

Pantos i sxtiki apofasi tis EE den tha epivalei aftomati anagnorisi ton ptyxeion pou den einai stin episimi glossa tis xoras, exo enimerothei giati opos sou eipa to master mou sti suidia den tha anagnorizetai stin ellada... Diladi KANENA master souidou den anagnorizetai stin ellada giati ola ginontai sta agglika...

[Dunadan Ranger]

nai ennoeite oti e3airounte ta agglofwna tmhmata pou en elladi outws h allws den anagnwrizonte.

[eyeamflesch]

to na lete oti OLOI oi psixiatroi/psixologoi einai kompogianitesi einai toulaxiston ILITHIO. Iparxoun kai tetioi (opos se ola ta epagelmata aloste) alla iparxoun kai epistimones poly spudaioi pou pragmatika mporoun na voithisoun i na sosoun kapion pou exei provlima.


BTW enas filos mou psixiatros epathe to eksis. Eksetaze enan astheni kai tou eipe o asthenis "tha pidikso apo to parathiro" kai tou leei o giatros "siga min pidikseis".....

... kai epitopou pidikse kai skotothike

http://www.electricrequiem.com/viewtopi ... 2&start=15

[katwrimos]

what's your point?

[eyeamflesch]

what's your point?

Toxeis graFsei me kefalaia.

[katwrimos]

what's your point?

Toxeis graFsei me kefalaia.

duh...

To ksero oti ta post sto topic etouto einai terastia alla an variesai na ta diavaseis den se ipoxreonei kaneis na postareis. To olo thema tou topic den einai oti den iparxei kaneis kalos giatros ek valkanion, alla an aksizei gia 5 kalous giatrous na anoiksei o dromos kai se 20 kompogianites.

[eyeamflesch]

what's your point?

Toxeis graFsei me kefalaia.

duh...

To ksero oti ta post sto topic etouto einai terastia alla an variesai na ta diavaseis den se ipoxreonei kaneis na postareis. To olo thema tou topic den einai oti den iparxei kaneis kalos giatros ek valkanion, alla an aksizei gia 5 kalous giatrous na anoiksei o dromos kai se 20 kompogianites.

Ti les bre xazouli, afou symeteixa ki egw se touto to thread otan itan sta mpounia tou, apla eida aFto sou to post enw epsaxna gia kati allo kai eipa na to xwsw edw. Tairgiazei, oso nanai

Edit: Gia na deis oti gnwrizw to thread aFto kai thymamai ta periexomena toy, na se ypenthymisw oti akoma na dwkeis info ston Dunadan gia ti syntagi pou eixan ferei sti mana sou

[dead]

Lipon tha kano k egw mia grigori sfhna se auto to anousio post tou "giati den genithika souidos gamo ton xristouli mou mesa" katwrimou, xwris na to exo diavasei olo.


1) Osoi amfivaloun oti oi giatroi ek roumanias / boulgarias klp ine stin PLEOPSIFIA TOUS xasapides 4hs katigorias, ine stin kalyteri periptwsi panilithioi k tous euxomai kapoia stigmi na pane gia mia mikri epemvasi se kapoion "giatro" k na fugoun me ena ligotero xeri k podi.

2) Ta epixeirimata sou Freak se auto to thread ine sxedon oso ilithia ine k tou luka.


Nuf Said

:*