Stoxos: H fthora twn Sinidisewn

[Vasilias]

Auto to thread einai apantisi se keimeno tis/tou Phoebus gia tin fthora twn sinidisewn. Einai asxeto me tin sizitisi twn panepistimiwn, giauto to anigw se allo thread. Mu fenete idietera simantiko ke arketa sovari sizitisi ke endiaferon na tin aniksume edwpera:

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"Twra, gia to an h politeia noiazetai na morfwthei o kosmos to briskw kapws akraio, katalabainw bebaia ti ennoeis"

Oxi dn einai akraio... katholu akraio. Einai h alithia. Arxizwntas prota prota apo tin istoria... Pistevis pws ta vivlia tis istorias einai antikimenika? Exeis diavasi pote ti lene oi astikes filades (Bhma, Nea, Kathimerini klp klp) otan anaferonte stin istoria? Allantalon! Exeis diavasi sta oikonomika panepistimia as poume ti lene sto mathima tus "Oikonomia stis Anatolikes xwres"? Diastrevlonoune tin istoria me xaraktiristiki anesi. H imimathia einai xeiroteri apo tin amathia ama thes tin prosopiki mu gnomi.

Ama kaneis mia sigkrisi twn eidisewn apo ta site antipliroforisis, apo tis aristeres rizospastikes efimerides me tis eidisis twn MME klp klp tha deis pws kamia epafi me tin alithia dn exoune oi 'eidisis" twn 2wn. As poume ksereis pws ousiastika sinexizete o polemos sto IRAK me tin morfi antartikou? Ksereis pws kathe mera pethenoune amerikanoi stratiotes? Ti ksereis gia tin intifanta? Ksereis pws stin evropi exoune apagoreuti ola ta kommounistika kommata stis proin "anatolikes" evropaikes xwres, ke filakistikan ke dikazonte ta melh tous kai oi opadoi tus? Ti ksereis gia tin simerini katastasi stin Argentini, Volivia, Benezouela? Kai min mu peis pws dn einai simantika themata auta, eite pws oi 3 proanaferomenes xwres dn einai geitonikes me tin Ellada ke etsi dikeologite. Dn to vriskis kapws "astio" kathe evdomada oi astikes filades na exoune arthra pou na vrizoune ton kommunismo? (me emetika keimena kiolas)... gia paradigma sto mudial o pretenteris paromiase tin aristera me ta stimena pexnidia tou podosferou, legontas oti ta stimena pexnidia tou podosferou katastrefoun tin dimokratia, opws akrivos ke h aristera. TO exw to keimeno ston ypologisti mu ama thes na to diavasis, pesmuto na sto stilw. Alla gia na to diapistosis pare mia kiriakatiki, OPIADIPOTE, tha deis ti enow (oxi koutsompolistiki vevea).

Na su pw alles periptosis. Ena pedi mupe kapote "Oloi oi kommounistes einai ilithioi" ke twn rotaw "ksereis ti einai o kommunismos?" ke dn iksere na mu apantisi. Pws einai dinaton na pisteveis pws kapioi pou pistevun kati einai ilithioi otan dn exeis idea ti pistevoun? Emena my mirizi propaganda twn MME, esas?

Alla epidi piastika arketa me tin "aristera" ke tin propaganda pou ginete stin aristera, as milisw ke gia allo ena thema pali se sxesi me tin politiki. To thema tis Xountas. Mas fovizoune sinexia me tin xounta, giati einai kakia klp klp. dn anaferoune omws pios einai ypeuthinos panta gia tis xountes ke tis diktatories. Autoi pu tis stinoune einai ousiastika oi idioi oi yperaspistes tis astikis "dimokratias". Na thimithoume pws o Klinton otan irthe stin ellada paradextike auto pou olos o kosmos stin ellada iksere, diladi oti tin Xounta tin epevale h Ameriki (dilose pws irthe stin ellada na zitisi signomi gia tin xounta), dn anaferthike omws pws h ipostiriktes tis meta tin metapoliteusi analavane simantikes epaggelmatikes thesis. Ena allo karabinato paradigma einai auto tis Xilis, tin 11 Septemvriou tou 1973. Ksekinisa na grafw to keimeno, alla kalitera tha itan na dosw ena url se keimeno tou politikou kafeniou, ta leei kalitera apomena: http://anatolikos.com/cgi-bin/ikonbo...t=ST;f=1;t=153 (min diavasete ta keimena tu SEK, einai vasika lathos). Ta idia ginonte ke twra stin Vevezouela opou o tsabes epixiri ta idia me ton alliente, ke h ameriki ke ta astika MME ipostirizoune anixta stratiotiki epemvasi gia na "apokatastathi h taksi"... ama thelete sas vriskw keimena sto internet ke gia auto to thema.

Lete pws dn asxoliste me tin politiki ke dn sas endiaferi... giati to kanete auto? Mporei kaneis sas na mu pei me sovara epixirimata giati dn asxolite me tin politiki? Prosopika tha protina pantos na diavasete to mikro vivliaraki tu Enouarnt Rozental me titlo "Stoxos: H fthora twn sinidisewn" (an ke diafonw me to proto kefaleo, ke sto telos anaferei "ditikous" kapious trotskistes opou me liga logia me tin seira tu kanei ke autos propaganda). kata tin gnomi mu einai apotelesma tis ypostirizomenis apo ta MME kai oxi mono ideas tu "epanastati xwris etia" pou einai ke poli magkas pu dn asxolite me tin politiki epidi kanenas dn tha ton voithisi, oloi einai skata klp klp, vrizi tin simerini katastasi alla ta apodidi stin ilithiotita ke leei pws autos apla diaferi.

Posoi aposas endiaferthikane esto ke sto elaxisto gia tin politiki oikonomia. Posoi diavasate Marx 'h Keins (o 2os yper tu kapitalismou), esto gia na deite ti lene vre aderfe. Lete pws sas aresoune ta vivlia, ke sto kato kato dn einai ke toso diskolodiavasta gia na kurastite. giati dn ta anigete loipon?

Me liga logia to oti yparxoune sta vivliopolia dn simenei pws tha exei kaneis tin diathesi na ta diavasi. Me tin propaganda pou eksipireti profanous skopous, pollounte sta vivliopolia alla se kanoune na adiaforis gia auta.

PS. Dn thelw na thiksw kanenan, h mpala perni arketous apodo, dn tus amfisvitw ke dn tus katatazw se afelis 'h ilithious. Oi perisoteroi malista einai idietera eksipni, ke arketus tixenei na tus gnorizw ke na tus simpathw.
PSS. perimenw apantisis ke tha epistrepsw me perisotera keimena ke perisoter

[WoTaN]

Ta panta ksekiname apo tin imimatheia kai apo tin ellipsi paidias kai swstis ISTORIAS.
To sxoleio den prosferei gnwsi istorias pera apo tin Elliniki i opoia einai diastrevlomeni kai kommeni kai rammeni sta metra merikwn.
Kathonte kai mas didaskoun tin Istoria tis Germanias tis Gallias tis Amerikis adiaforontas gia krati opos Rwssia Volivia Argentini ktl.Pote den tha ksexasw oti PANTA htan ektos ulhs i istoria tis Rwssias.
Mas parousiazoun megistous fasistes ws megala muala tis istorias kai anothrotes.Tetoia istoria na mas leipei.Kalutera amatheia para imimatheia opos eipe o Vasilias.Toulaxiston apo tin amatheia kapoia stigmi an psaxteis tha matheis tin alitheia.Estw kai argoporimena.

[Carcass_]

Wraio keimeno...kathhmerines erwthseis pou tha mporouses na tis kaneis ston opoiodhpote. Twra, oswn afora tis apanthseis...

[FIXXXER]

Kala, den einai katholou duskolo na katalaveis oti ginetai terastia propaganda kata tis aristeras... ego oudepote anika se kamia kommatiki parataxi, oute upostirizo kamia kai den exo problima na diloso oti etsi opos einai i politiki stin Ellada auti ti stigmi na pane na psofisoun oloi. Alla einai endiaferon na parakoloutho olous autous pou poronontai me ta kommata kai xerontas kai merikous prosopika na kataligo oti to megalutero pososto den endiaferetai gia ta koina, alla gia to pos tha perasei kalutera autos. Kai einai fos fanari to pos ginetai auti i propaganda kata tis aristeras... opoion "asxeto" ki an rotiseis tha sou pei oti ta kommounia einai malakes.

[marianna2525]

hairomai pou kapoia paidia, pou ta gnorizo apo sholiaropaida, ehoun ginei toso skeptomena atoma, eilikrina afto me sygkinei poly.
synehiste paidia sto idio styl, doste ta erethismata kai se kapoious allous na anoixoun ta myala tous.

[FIXXXER]

Auto to post sou Marianna tha borouse kallista na to eklavei kapoios pou exei upostei plusi egkefalou os eironiko.

[marianna2525]

den eironevomai katholou, tous carcass, vasilia kai arketous allous apo tin grmetallers list tous gnorisa prin 4 hronia.
etsi ki'allios se tetoiou eidous syzitiseis xehorizei i ira apo to stahy, ta paidia gnorizoun poso ta ektimo, tora an kapoioi shimatisoun lathos entyposi, provlima tous...
alitheia, pisteveis pos afto to thema tha to diavasoun polloi?

[FIXXXER]

Ma ego katalava pos to egrapses, apla kautiriasa ligaki akoma to olo thema propagandas pou anaferthike.... thelo na po oti polloi tha theorousan pio fusiko na tous eironeuesai para na milas sovara...

[rincewind2k]

Ama kaneis mia sigkrisi twn eidisewn apo ta site antipliroforisis, apo tis aristeres rizospastikes efimerides me tis eidisis twn MME klp klp tha deis pws kamia epafi me tin alithia dn exoune oi 'eidisis" twn 2wn.

kai auto aytomata kanei tis eidhseis twn prwtwn adiamfisbhthto gegonos? eimai mazi so 1500% oson afora thn paraplhroforhsh tou "astou" kai thn prospatheia pou ginetai na "lobotomhthei" ousiastika, kai na fimwthoun oi exontes antitheth apopsh me ayth twn "ithynontwn", alla as mhn prename kai sto allo akro, e? Dhladh h "antipropaganda" einai kalh?

Dhladh na amfisbhtoume ola osa akoume kai diabazoume *ektos* apo ayta pou proerxontai apo ton aristero xwro? kai ekshghse mou, poion akribws "aristero" xwro ennoeis kai poso yper thn eleutherhs skepshs kai epiloghs eisai otan les "MHN diabasete ta tou SEK, einai lathos basika"?

les oti thewroun tous kommounistes malakes, exeis anarrwththei *ti* eikona exei o kosmos gia tous kommounistes otan ta paradeigmata einai h aleka kai oi knites?

kata tin gnomi mu einai apotelesma tis ypostirizomenis apo ta MME kai oxi mono ideas tu "epanastati xwris etia" pou einai ke poli magkas pu dn asxolite me tin politiki epidi kanenas dn tha ton voithisi, oloi einai skata klp klp, vrizi tin simerini katastasi alla ta apodidi stin ilithiotita ke leei pws autos apla diaferi.

basika, an kai me eirwniko tropo, sxedon me periegrapses, opote prepei kai gw na rwthsw: ok, wraio na oniropoleis kai na sxediazeis epanastaseis sto myalo sou, alla exeis *koitaksei* katholou *gyrw sou*? Alla oxi kyrioi, ola ayta tha allaksoun an pshfisoume, giati h pshfos sou metraei, *esy* apofasizeis.

no thanx, tha meinw sto skotadi mou, sas afhnw sthn hsyxia sas na afypnisete syneidhseis

kalhnyxta

[The_Painless]

Wraio thread anoi3es. Elpizw na mh gurisei entelws allou kai auto.
To 'den asxoloumai me thn politikh' opws kai to 'oloi oi politikoi malakes einai', einai h megaluterh pipa pou akouei kaneis apo to stoma kapoiou pou fobatai oti h ama8eia tou 'h h hmima8eia tou 8a ton 8esei sto peri8wrio ths suzhthshs pou epikeitai. Teleiws akuro epixeirhma. Oute kan epixeirhma dhladh.
Otan eisai meros enos susthmatos den prepei na gnwrizeis estw pws leitourgei kai poio rolo diadramatizeis mesa se auto? ki an de gnwrizeis den prepei na ma8eis anti na kleineis t' autia sou me to mh-epixeirhma 'egw den asxoloumai me thn politikh'?

8elw na anafer8w sto zhthma twn mainstream efhmeridwn/thleorasewn/radiofwnwn. 3eroume oloi pws to paizoun. Kai fantazomai pws merikoi 3eroun ti sumbainei stous dhmosiografous pou arnountai na akolou8hsoun th grammh, right? Anaferomai se sxetika prosfato paradeigma, sto diko mas sta8mo kai allow me not to say more. Omws h antimetwpish pros autous pou 'aristerizoun' perissotero ap' oso 'prepei' (ki exoume ftasei sto shmeio to perissotero pou epitrepetai na aristerizeis na einai to Pasok): 8umizei sumperifora 'kommounisths? - falagga'.
Btw, Vasilia, plz ean mporeseis steile mou to ar8ro tou Pretenterh. Egkurh pena....

Gia to pws diaxeirizontai ta MME ta megala die8nh zhthmata:
Noam Chomsky: Media Control - the spectacular achievements of propaganda
Ignacio Ramonet - Siwphrh Propaganda
Ki ena panw se arketa sugkekrimeno alla oxi e3ezhthmeno 8ema:
Edward Said - Covering Islam

Nomizw oti mia kai anoi3es auto to thread einai eukairia na 8i3oume perissotera zhthmata.

[Phoebus]

Koita Vasilia, kat'arxhn eimai O.

Loipon tha antepixeirhmatologisw s'ayto pou eipes. Oxi den einai h alitheia. H politeia an se hthele amorfwto tha se eixe PRAGMATIKA amorfwto... kai TWRA ta nea paidia, an kai mporei na kanoun ta idia biblia pou ekana kai gw prin 15 xronia, exoun anaptyksei kritikh skepsh perissotero apo mas... Kai peran aytou, nomizw prepei na kaneis enan safh diaxwrismo metaksy MORFWSHS kai PLHROFORHSHS.

H morfwsh POTE MA POTE den einai plhrhs otan diabazoume APLA ta gegonota (me ton opoio tropo). Dhladh akoma kai an telika diabazame sta sxolia ayta pou tha htheles esy egw pisteyw oti h morfwsh mas tha htan elleiphs. PANTA prepei na diabazoume ti lene oles oi apopseis.

Epeidh bebaia omws den diabazoume kai twn allwnwn tis apopseis sta sxolika biblia den shmainei oti den morfwnomaste. Ekei prepei na to skefteite sobarotera, den einai apla mia grammh pou trabame kai leme "a twra morfwsh, prin den eixame morfwsh". H morfwsh einai mia SYNEXHS diadikasia, pou synexizetai kai afou bgeis apo ena periballon pou se prodiathetei gia kati tetoio (opws einai to sxoleio 'h to panepisthmio).

Oso gia thn plhroforhsh, pali ta panta epafiontai sthn kritikh skepsh tou atomou... twra gia poion logo esy thewreis ta keimena tou politikou kafeneiou swsta kai oxi ayta twn politikwn efhmeridwn... den kserw. Ta paidia tou politikou kafeneiou kseroun kalytera? 'H mhpws exoun zhsei apo konta ta gegonota pou perigrafoun? Oso amfisbhteis esy tis efhmerides toso kapoios allos tha mporouse na amfisbhthsei ayta pou leei to politiko kafeneio...

Kai ayto pou eipes oti oi fyllades brizoun ton kommounismo, kalo tha einai na bazeis mprosta thn leksh "yparktos", giati exei terastia diafora. Kai mhn sygxeeis ton Marx me ton yparkto kommounismo... plz...

Oso gia mena proswpika, nai tous knites tous sixainomai. Kai gw proswpika kai o pateras mou exoume zhsei katastaseis, kai egw tous aporiptw POLITIKA kai mono, giati oi energeies tous sthn politikh perissotero fasismo mou thymizoun para kommounismo. Kai den tha katsw na dikaiologithw s'ayto pou lew, 'h to katalabaineis 'h den to katalabaineis. KANENA yparkto kommounistiko systhma den petyxe, kai an thes thn apopsh mou ayta pou exoun ginei sto anatoliko block kai sthn anatolikh asia einai ta megalytera lathi tis aristeras en genei, kai gi'ayton ton logo exei epikrathsei mesw twn MME ayth h apopsh "kommounisths=kwlopaido".

Kai profanws epeidh fainesai kai atomo pou genika asxoleitai, tha sou proteina na afhseis thn propaganda (pou einai kathara anthrwpino kataskeyasma) kai na asxolhtheis me thn afhrhmenh ennoia ths eleytherias.

Ama milousame gi'ayth pragmatika tote den tha eixa epixeirhmata, den tha mporousa na pw oti ontws eimaste eleytheroi... Kai prepei na katalabeis oti ekei telika thelei na strafei to erwthma sou. To problhma den einai h propaganda, to problhma einai an ONTWS eisai eleytheros na kaneis kati.

Ayta pros to paron.

[Dragonlord]

pantws oi kommounistes einai malakes

[Magellan]

malakes iparxoun pantou
den tous 8ewrw malakes isa isa ..........tous 8ewrw omws "kolimenous"

[atom_smasher]

xm.endiaferon zhthma.eimai politikopoihmeno on,an kai sigoura oxi to fanatikotero.den eimai komatikopoihmeno.oi perissoteroi pou xw gnwrisei einai,xm, oxi idiaitera euxaristes proswpikothtes.to paleuw kai gw to zhthma pantws tou paramuthiasmatos.oloi prospathoun na kanoun to kommati tous.egw prospathw na epilegw to mh xeiriston beltistw, h kapws etsi.giati kati pragmatika kalo den vlepw na uparxei.oson afora tous komounistes tous therw parwxumenous,3eperasmenous apo ta gegonota.

[nikodimos]

Na sumfwnhsw kat' arxas me ton Phoebus. To 8ema einai terastio fusika opote uparxoun endiaferonta epixeirhmata kai stis duo apopseis.

Dustuxws den 8a eimai edw stis epomenes 5-6 meres logw sunauliwn kai upoxrewsewn, me apotelesma na mhn mporw na grapsw makroskelh analush apopsewn. 8ewrw malakia sta forum kapoios na leei mia apopsh kai meta na xanetai xwris na thn uposthri3ei, opote 8a apanthsw molis epistrepsw.